Calvinism/origin of sin 2

Satan did rebell against him, so yes.

Check out the words predestine destine and elect or election.

Are you saying God is not sovereign? Do you believe he knows the future?

That's not true at all. Being the decreeer of a sin isn't the same as the tempter of the sinner. Read the story of David and the census in 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21.

Read Genesis 50:20. God is responsible for all of the good that happens, the evil that happens is the fault of man. If man wasn't evil then evil wouldn't happen. God has decreed these things for the benefit of his elect according to Romans 9. That is for good.

Isaiah 45:7

temptation is not a decree, as shown earlier. If you don;t believe the men who killed Christ were predestined to do that by God then you don;t believe Acts 4:27-28

Certainly not libertarian free will.

I didn;t say it did. I just pointed out that it says to trust in the Lord. That means regardless if there is grief or not. Rest assured there will be. DO I really need to show you that from scripture?

 

What????? God's love is and always has been manifested to the fullest because He IS love.

Sin did not make God love more fully. His love is perfect apart from sin or humans or animals or any other thing.

 

Light

God ordained Lucifer to be a cherub a guardian. He appointed, anointed until wickedness was found in Him. Light of God wasn't taking from him he turned away from the light, the direction God intended for him. God did use him for the good of those who love God. God has a awesome ability to turn evil that comes from their own evil desire not the desire of God for the good of those who love Him.

Lamentations 3:
22 Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 I say to myself, “The LORD is my portion;
therefore I will wait for him.”

25 The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him,
to the one who seeks him;
26 it is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.
27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is young.

28 Let him sit alone in silence,
for the LORD has laid it on him.
29 Let him bury his face in the dust—
there may yet be hope.
30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.

31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.

 

Did you understand the term.

What makes you so sure that God needs anything from man. It isn't that God has a need it's that man because of his weakness needs God.

I'm sure that my Lord would have rather the whole thing never happened other wise He would not have asked the Father to take that cup from Him.

Your misunderstanding here is because you have the wrong definition of the word Sovereignty. Sovereignty does not mean absolute rule of every thought and every single thing under the sun. That is totalitarianism.
I have already answered your question here. God gave man dominion and man lost it to Satan and became his slave

What makes you think this is something I want I never said that.

Half true;
Christ laying down His life is the greatest display of Love. Although the universe was built for man to live in.

What makes you think I would want to take God's place?

I'm convinced that you have no clue what God actually did or of the why of, all that He did it for.

I would prefer that man had never sinned in the first place.

I would prefer that man had never sinned in the first place.

No I believe that man sinned

No sin, No need of being redeemed.

Then why keep on.

Simply because Job already belonged to God.

It also teaches even before that, that God gave man dominion over it. Just in case you don't understand the term "dominion" it means rule.
MB

 

So you will NOT answer the simple question based on YOUR view?

Prophet Webdog strikes again.

 

What's your view?

 

Yes, and then you acknowledged that you do affirm a "permissive decree" to which I asked you to clarify several times, but .... nothing.

There are different types of decrees Luke and when you make ambiguous statements such as you did in that other post one must ask you to explain your intent every time because you are about as difficult to pin down as jello.

 

So, when James says God doesn't even tempt men to evil, you interpret that to mean that God is the one who predetermined the temptation, the intent of the tempter, the desires of the tempted and ultimately every aspect of the decision being made...

Ok, sure... I'll let objective readers judge that one for themselves.

Who is making this objection in Paul's mind?

1. The non-elect reprobate predetermined to hell?

OR

2. The temporarily hardened Jew, who God has held out his hands to all day (Rm 10:21) and who though hardened now, might be provoked to envy and saved (Rm 11:14) if they leave their unbelief (Rm 11:21)?

Who is Paul referring to as "the same lump?"

1. All of humanity?

OR

2. Israel. Which God has chosen a Remnant from for "noble purposes" (like Paul for apostleship) and the rest of Israel who remain hardened in their rebellion (common use)?

Are these the same "reprobates" Paul begin the chapter speaking of as his fellow countrymen who he loved so much that he would wished himself accursed for their sakes? Are they the same countrymen being cut off but who Paul anticipates might be provoked to envy and saved?

The problem with you interpretation of Paul is that you don't seem to take into account the actual historical context of what is going on.

 

I'd have to agree with you there. The Lord has always been merciful. It is His nature to be merciful. He does manifest who He is most clearly in Christ Jesus.

But love has always existed within the Trinity. God never had need of anything, still has need of nothing, and never will need anything. He was perfect and complete in Himself, is, and ever will be.

 

Since you haven't lived in eternity past you wouldn't know that.
What is the character of God? The very essence of God is love; perfect love. Nothing can be greater than the one who is absolute perfect love. As great as the sacrifice of Christ was, it can't be greater than God Himself, He who is love.

 

Talk is cheap! Maybe if your wife, daughter, or other close relative were raped or tortured and murdered you would see the foolishness of your twisted doctrine. I hope this doesn't happen to you, but like I said, talk is cheap!

 

This just shows another glaring error in Luke's twisted view of God!

 

Here is the answer Vincent Cheung gives to the James 1:13 objection:

Link: http://www.rmiweb.org/books/authorsin.pdf

Not necessarily either, it is any person who wonders why God still finds fault in one he has predestined for damnation.

Both elect and reprobates. Your multiple choice questions don't cover the topic at hand.

Some are.

Indeed I do. I apply the historical gramatical hermeneutic. There is the historical context side and the spiritual side. The spiritual side is the point of the writings as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Christ was God in human form on earth, thus it was God who laid down his life. There is no greater love than laying down one's life for others. I am going to start another thread on the weak Christ. It is an area, I believe, Calvinist totally ignore.

 

So Vincent believes as you that when James says God doesn't even tempt men to evil, its means that God is the one who predetermined the temptation, the intent of the tempter, the desires of the tempted and ultimately every aspect of the decision being made...

I'll let objective readers decide that for themselves. But, I think the intent is clearly not this...

That is the problem. You think the phrase "I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy" refers to the elect individuals predestined to heaven and the phrase "I will harden whom I will hardened" refers to the non-elect reprobated predestined to Hell. But a simply reading of the entire context quickly reveals that is not Paul's intent.

He begins expressing his deep love for this so-called Hardened Jews and he ends the chapter with a great summary of his intent, which was: "30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Which clearly means that Israel, as a whole, is being hardened in their rebellion, while Gentiles are being shown mercy. Yes, there are individual Jews, like Paul, who though out of the same lump (Israel) was formed for the noble purpose of apostleship while most of the rest of his countrymen are being temporarily hardened. Paul clearly believes these same hardened Jews might be provoked and come to salvation and that they might "leave their unbelief" and be "grafted in again." (Rm 11:14-25). So, obviously Paul never intended to say those being hardened or "bound over to their disobedience" are certainly condemned. As Paul concludes the chapter: "God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He might show mercy to them all."

The choice "all humanity" does cover the option "both elect and reprobates?" Doesn't that pretty much cover everyone?

If some of those he referred to as being hardened might be saved then they couldn't be the non-elect predestined to hell that you presume. In other words, "being hardened" can't mean "certainly condemned," as you seemed to assert. It can only mean, as I have explained, that they are temporarily blinded, but that they too might be saved in time. As Paul says, God is showing mercy to all, even those he was currently hardening.

 

Wow, James 1:13-15 cuts the ground right out from under the Calvinist. Wow!


James 1:13-15 Don't let anyone under pressure to give in to evil say, "God is trying to trip me up." God is impervious to evil, and puts evil in no one's way. The temptation to give in to evil comes from us and only us. We have no one to blame but the leering, seducing flare-up of our own lust. Lust gets pregnant, and has a baby: sin! Sin grows up to adulthood, and becomes a real killer. [The Message]
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13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. [KJV]
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13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. [NIV]
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No point in quoting other translations. WOW!

 

To be fair you should also quote the CAV, (Calvinistic Altered Version)

Here it is:

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me," For God is not just tempting you, He has decreed the tempters intent to tempt you, he decreed your intent to fall into the temptation and causally determined your choice to sin, so that you could not have willingly done otherwise. But, lets just say for the sake of avoiding the appearance of divine culpability that its really MEN who are responsible because after all they are doing what they desire. Don't worry about the fact that what men desire is predetermined by God so that it could not have been otherwise, that is not important, just say "men are acting according to their desire" so as to make people think you affirm human responsibility. Men are born dead."

 

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: