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Calvinism - TULIP - "P"erseverance of the Saints

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jdlongmire, Jun 16, 2008.

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  1. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    The Perseverance of the Saints (or the Security of Believers)

    The elect are not only redeemed by Christ and renewed by the Spirit, but also kept in faith by the almighty power of God. All those who are spiritually united to Christ through regeneration are eternally secure in him. Nothing can separate them from the eternal and unchangeable love of God. They have been predestined to eternal glory and are therefore assured of heaven.

    Isaiah 43:1-3; Isaiah 54:10; Jeremiah 32:40; Matthew 18:12-14; John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:35-40; John 6:47; John 10:27-30; John 17:11-12; John 17:15; Romans 5:8-10; Romans 8:1; Romans 8:35-39; 1 Corinthians 1:7-9; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 4:17; Ephesians 1:5; Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30; Colossians 3:3-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 10:14; Hebrews 12:28; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 John 2:19; 1 John 2:25; 1 John 5:4; 1 John 5:11-13; 1 John 5:20; Jude 1:1; Jude 1:24-25.

    In response to this thread

    Adapted from the former blog of Joel Barnes; the explanations of TULIP and corresponding biblical text arrangements have been adapted from David N. Steele, Curtis C. Thomas, and S. Lance Quinn, The Five Points of Calvinism (Second Edition), P and R Publishing, 2004, pp. 17-71. Further explanation adapted from James R. White, The Potter’s Freedom, Calvary Press Publishing, 2000, pp. 135-151.

    Full text here.

    T
    U
    L
    I
    P
     
    #1 jdlongmire, Jun 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2008
  2. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    In my own words:

    Perseverance of the Saints: Simply means that the truly regenerated person will continue to progress in the outworking of God's plan for the Elect. It also means that a truly regenerated person will progressively display characteristics associated with the inward workings of the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that a person will achieve perfect holiness in this life, but will, throughout any blessing or trial, continually strive to glorify God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength and exhibit agape love for others.
     
    #2 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    One person comes to mind that the "P" doesn't apply to in Scripture...Lot. He was one of only two individuals in Scirpture to be called both righteous and godly. From what we have recorded of his life, his actions were anything but.
     
    #3 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  4. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    And that is the point - you don't know, so you shouldn't speculate - or are you a better judge of Man than God's word?
     
    #4 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Huh? We DO know, Scripture states he was godly and righteous. His actions don't fit either the arminian or calvinist's model of perseverance.
     
    #5 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  6. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    The full extent of Lot's life and fruitfulness is not captured in Scripture, just the pieces that God chose to preserve for instruction according to His will. If God's word gives him credit for a godly and righteous life, I accept that he persevered in his godliness and righteousness.
     
    #6 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So basically you would rather read between the lines, and read into Scripture your presupposition that the "P" is immutable truth? I'll stick with Scripture. One is deemed godly and righteous by faith...not how one perseveres.
     
    #7 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  8. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    perseverance is measured at the end, not at the beginning or middle - and we don't take the measure. :)
     
    #8 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So where is the "blessed hope" if we don't know what the "measurement" is? Sounds like a back loaded works type Lordship Salvation to me.
     
    #9 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  10. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    You lost me.
     
    #10 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If salvation is based on how one lives their life (measured at the end), that is a works salvation that frustrates grace.
     
    #11 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Perseverance of the saints is one in which I have found myself disagreeing with many (not all) Calvinists, and some of my Primitive Baptist brethren.

    I do not feel comfortable with it, because what I have seen in Scripture is Preservation of the Saints.

     
    #12 pinoybaptist, Jun 18, 2008
  13. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Still trotting old Lot out to prove your point? Web, show me ONE scripture that says that Lot did not persevere.

    Here's one that says he DID persevere: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
    (II Peter 2)
     
    #13 J.D., Jun 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2008
  14. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    measured for quality - "well done, good and faithful servant!" not for salvation.
     
    #14 jdlongmire, Jun 18, 2008
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you pinoy, about the preservation of the saints.In the close of Jude 1 in the NLTse:"... I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ."

    I will give the first two propositions of the Westminster Confession of Faith.

    1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

    2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace, from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
     
    #15 Rippon, Jun 18, 2008
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    The following is from a part of what I had quoted from the WCoF :"this perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election."

    Here is the 5th stanza of How Firm A Foundation.

    E'en down to old age all my people shall prove
    My sovereign, eternal, unchangeable love.
    And when hoary hairs shall their temples adorn,
    Like lambs they shall still in my bosom be borne.

    [ And from the 6th ]

    The soul that on Jesus hath leaned for repose
    I will not, I will not desert to his foes.
     
    #16 Rippon, Jun 18, 2008
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You know you can't prove a point from silence, JD. I'm surprised you would ask for such...

    Prove from Scripture Lot never ate eggs for breakfast...
     
    #17 webdog, Jun 19, 2008
  18. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Web, You keep saying that Lot disproves perseverence. Then show me the scripture. I assert that Lot persevered, and gave you scripture proof. Do the same my friend, or if, as you yourself said, you can't prove a point from silence, then remain silent! (sticks out tongue)(I only stick out my tongue at people I like)

    ....waiting for your scripture proofs....
     
    #18 J.D., Jun 19, 2008
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