Calvinism - TULIP - "T"otal Depravity

Since Romans 8 is dealing with sanctification...I'm not understanding your point.

 

A spiritual corpse,..... ok that kinda sounds like dead to me.

 

So is this really about debate or just your pet place to try to sling mud or misrepresent a 3rd time anothers view.

I'm not saying your doing it intentionally however, when your told it is not truly their view it might be a good idea to find out what THEY believe rather than going to other Calvinists to ask them what those others believe.

We all misrepresent to a degree at times because we do not hold the veiws of the other however your trying to degrade and make fun others who do not even agree with such nonsense.

 

Maybe you should actually learn what those of us who do not hold to irresistable grace believe before commenting on it so you are not embarrassing yourself.

 

Then I must not be a synergist. But I do not hold to irresistable grace. I believe the difference in our beliefs is based on different definitions of "works".

 

Agreed brother.

 

And if there is to ever be a realistic discussion, or debate on the issue it should be there and there alone. Everything else is just issues related to this and useless.

 

Rip: This thread deals with Total Depravity, not Irresistible Grace.

And, may I say, a difference in our beliefs also lies in different definitions of words.

 

Quite true.

To point, true as well.

 

Unfortunately, trichotomy is a BIBLE principle. You won't get to heaven if you are not "sanctified wholely... body, soul, and spirit, 1Thes 5:23-24. I suggest you leave off the philosophical principles of men and study the biblical principles of godly truth, friend.

And while I have you attention, you still are not responding to my "sin nature" claim --- that Calvinists haven't a clue what sin nature is. Their particular view seems to have been garnered from the philosophy of a man who WAS at one time as bad as he could be -- Augustine.



skypair

 

It's garbage written by a person who doesn't know how to "grow in grace."

skypair

 

In other words, you "have a name that liveth but art dead." Or, in words you may be able to comprehend, you know where to go for grace but you haven't chosen it. God chose you but you have not chosen God.

What you express is belief without personal trust or faith. An example would be Judas who believed everything Jesus said about His Messiahship until he saw that it would no longer serve his real lust for personal power. Being "chosen," he never committed personally to Jesus program of salvation but embraced His promises of political, temporal Kingship.

"Get thee behind me, Satan!" You're as much as saying, "This [death] shall not be unto Thee" just like Peter said! Just as Christ "chose the nails," I must choose death to myself (live once, die twice; live twice, die once.) 'ere I ever receive life in Him.

This monergist-synergerist thing is between you and the Catholics! Leave us Baptists out of it!

skypair

 

It belongs here in that Calvinists claim "spiritual inability" due to "spiritual death"/"total depravity" when, in fact, scripture says we are NOT spiritually unable to hear the gospel nor to respond in trust.

The foundation of trichotomy is the Trinity of God Himself. We are created in God's image to have 3 aspects to our 1 person. For the purposes of our redemption, God has revealed Himself in "Persons" -- 1 per aspect. God/soul, Spirit/spirit, and Jesus/body. Even though our soul be dead (Ezek 18:20), His Spirit communicates with our yet living spirit (mind, emotions, and will) His "eternal godhead" and salvation so that we are "without excuse" in not choosing His salvation by a) knowing Him, b) glorifying Him, and c) thanking Him, Rom 1:21 as is appropriate to the "light" He has given us. So, whereas the soul is indeed, spiritually "dead," the spirit (intellect, emotions, and will) are very much alive and responsive (as you would otherwise admit if it weren't part of your "Reform Dogma" to deny it).

2) They have a misguided "model" of the sin nature. Every creature born into this world has INSTINCTS that allow it to survive, grow, and regenerate in kind. Only the human creature has "spiritual laws" whereby instincts are regulated for the common good through conscience, family, government, commandment, etc. It is when our "instinctive" acts encounter these "spiritual laws" that we have SIN in the strictest sense of the word, Rom 7:9-11.

The same thing that allows us to understand "spiritual law" (conviction) and obey it on these various levels is the conscience or soul that makes us capable of "seeing" God's provision for sin and obeying it unto salvation.

Ergo, Calvinism's "totally depraved" person just does NOT exist! It is a "philosophical illusion." There is no creature alive that is 1) brain dead and 2) living totally instinctively with no regard for spiritual regulation of his behavior.

 

Rev 3:1, which in the opinion of many, represents the Reform era of the church. And especially note "Remember therefore how YOU received and heard, and hold fast, and repent."

How were YOU saved, jdlong?? By election or by repentance?

Stop preaching this "passive gospel" of yours -- this "I think I am 'elect,' therefore I am 'saved'" gospel -- and start preaching the gospel of scripture that is "conditioned" upon your obedient response to God! Abram didn't have "faith" by believing God and sitting in Ur the rest of his life! You and your fellow Reformers need to get up off your collective "monergistic" duffs before Christ does "come as a thief ... upon you" and cause your "house to be broken!" (Mt 24:43) This is not my warning. It is Christ's!

skypair

 

PREACH IT brother. Oh wait. The elect are the saved.

PREACH IT brother. Oh wait. Obedient....is works. Condition...is not grace but what is owed.

I (God) have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace

Nor did faith come by going. Faith was given by God (Hebrews) and Abram showed this faith by going. Again you must get beyond actions/works and into grace and faith.

s
Get away from Salvation by God alone..and then what?

In other words you think Christ is against salvation is by God alone?

!

From my view you are now questioning our salvation, which is nothing new for you, by twisting the words of Christ. Lets see if any non-calvinist will take a stand and call you out for going against the BB rules

 

And you are correct there. Which is why I have very lately tended to stay away from these C/A discussions. It gets to the flesh, and I would rather love skypair.

 

Correction: the saved are elect. But so are some unsaved. Israel was a "chosen people" but not all were saved. Sardis were "chosen" for mention in Rev 2 but they too were not all saved. Judas was "chosen"/"elect" but not saved. You're not going to say he was saved, are you, James?

I hear ya. So just don't choose Christ and "cross your fingers" that you're saved. I see a lot of that in Reformed churches, bro. "Name that liveth but art dead."

"Kept" 'em. Yeah. Saved 'em unconditionally. Nope. Have you read Heb 11 lately?

You're having a problem with WHEN grace and faith are "given." Belief + trust = faith, friend. You seem to believe all that God says -- you just appear to refuse to claim it cause that would be a "work," right? "Name that liveth but art dead."

You are "short circuiting" the facts, James. As with Noah, Abram was "moved with fear." That's "conviction," James. "[F]or he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Do you think that Abram thought believed that God was? Do you think he believed there was reward for leaving Ur? Then you understand what "faith" is.

Then get saved! Perhaps you aren't familiar with real Reform churches but they presume their salvation is "all of God" as they sit patiently in their pews and recite the "Apostle's Creed." Heaven forbid we ask them to "commit" themselves to Christ through repentance of their spiritually "pristine" lives.

Sardis needs to "remember how they were saved" (Rev 3:3) and quit cutting others off from that access to eternal life. This is not an indictment of you unless you have "climbed over the fence another way," bro. I think the moderators would heartily agree with that view.

skypair