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Calvinism - TULIP - "U"nconditional Election

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jdlongmire, Jun 16, 2008.

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  1. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    Unconditional Election

    It would have been perfectly just for God to have left all men in their sin and misery and to have shown mercy to none. God was under no obligation whatsoever to provide salvation for anyone. It is in this context that the Bible sets forth the doctrine of election.

    The doctrine of election declares that God, before the foundation of the world, chose certain individuals from among the fallen members of Adam’s race to be the objects of his undeserved favor. These, and these only, he purposed to save. God could have chosen to save all men (for he had the power and authority to do so) or he could have chosen to save none (for he was under no obligation to show mercy to any) - but he did neither. Instead, he chose to save some and to exclude others. His eternal choice of particular sinners for salvation was not based upon any foreseen act or response on the part of those selected, but was based solely on his own good pleasure and sovereign will. Thus, election was not determined by, or conditioned upon, anything that men would do, but resulted entirely from God’s self-determined purpose.

    Those who were not chosen for salvation were passed by and left to their own evil devices and choices. It is not within the creature’s jurisdiction to call into question the justice of the creator for not choosing everyone for salvation. It is enough to know that the judge of the earth has done right. It should, however, be kept in mind that if God had not graciously chosen a people for himself and sovereignly determined to provide salvation for them and apply it to them, none would be saved. The fact that he did this for some, to the exclusion of others, is in no way unfair to the latter group, unless of course one maintains that God was under obligation to provide salvation for sinners - a position which the Bible utterly rejects.

    The act of election itself saved no one; what it did was to mark out certain individuals for salvation. Consequently, the doctrine of election must not be divorced from the doctrines of human guilt, redemption, and regeneration, or else it will be distorted and misrepresented. In other words, if the Father’s act of election is to be kept in its proper biblical balance and correctly understood, it must be related to the redeeming work of the Son, who gave himself to save the elect, and to the renewing work of the Spirit, who brings the elect to faith in Christ.

    A Chosen People

    Deuteronomy 10:14-15; Psalm 33:12; Psalm 65:4; Psalm 106:5; Haggai 2:23; Matthew 11:27; Matthew 22:14; Matthew 22:22; Matthew 22:24; Matthew 24:31; Luke 18:7; Romans 8:28-30; Romans 8:33; Romans 11:28; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 1 Peter 2:8-9; Revelation 17:14.

    Election Not Based on Foreseen Responses

    Mark 13:20; John 15:16; Acts 13:48; Acts 18:27; Romans 9:11-13; Romans 9:16; Romans 10:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27-29; Philippians 1:29; Philippians 2:12-13; Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 2:10; 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:9; James 2:5; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8.

    Election Precedes Salvation

    Acts 13:48; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 2:10.

    Election Based on Sovereign Mercy

    Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:6-7; Matthew 20:15; Romans 9:10-24; Romans 11:4-6; Romans 11:33-36; Ephesians 1:5.

    In response to this thread

    LIP on the way!

    Adapted from the former blog of Joel Barnes; the explanations of TULIP and corresponding biblical text arrangements have been adapted from David N. Steele, Curtis C. Thomas, and S. Lance Quinn, The Five Points of Calvinism (Second Edition), P and R Publishing, 2004, pp. 17-71. Further explanation adapted from James R. White, The Potter’s Freedom, Calvary Press Publishing, 2000, pp. 135-151.

    Full text here.

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    #1 jdlongmire, Jun 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2008
  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    It might get better responces if you actaully took the time to write what 'you' understand about it - at least for the most part.

    Otherwise this is will turn into just a cut and past from favorite authors/writers who have given refutes to these, and the other sides refute of that refute, and the refute of the refuted already refuted. et al...
     
    #2 Allan, Jun 17, 2008
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Faith:
    Baptist
    Rip : Do you know the noun form? It's refutation, irrefutably.
     
    #3 Rippon, Jun 17, 2008
  4. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Yes, but I LOVE to twist your gears on somethng so ridiculous.
     
    #4 Allan, Jun 17, 2008
  5. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    Oddly enough, I have :) - wanted to make sure we had a good "baseline" though.

    Unconditional Election: God has chosen select people from out of all humanity to grant exemption from the execution of His just judgement of all Post-Fall Mankind. This mercy is independent from any meritorious characteristic or activity of the elect persons and is the result of a covenant between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Trinitarian God) to bring glory to God through the activities of the Son as redeemer and judge of all Mankind.

    All of TULIP here.
     
    #5 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  6. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    jdlong...

    Calvinists actually have no authority to make the claim of "unconditional election" and here's why ---

    They (RC Sproul, etal.) admit that they do NOT know how God chooses whom He chooses to salvation/election. So how in the world could they know that it is unconditional?

    The Bible says believers are chosen to salvation, belief then being the "condition," Rom 4:5.

    But lets even put a finer point on it than that. The "elect" are those who believe God -- the "saved" are those who TRUST God. Lucifer, Adam, Judas, Israel, and Sardis are examples of the former. They were all "chosen" and believed what God said but weren't satisfied with His "plan" ("name that liveth but art dead" comes to mind). They all wanted the "kingdom" unconditionally as, apparently, Calvies do.

    The saints in Heb 11 were examples of the latter. They believed God and put His words into action through obedience. It was them whose belief became faith "that justifieth the ungodly."

    Therefore, how would someone TRUST/OBEY God if he/she believed Him?? By repenting (turning from self), being baptized with the Spirit in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38. Are these "conditions?" Yes. "There is no other name ... whereby YOU must be saved," Acts 4:12 And I stress the "YOU" because you must do it yourself. God does NOT do it for you.

    skypair
     
    #6 skypair, Jun 17, 2008
  7. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    Skypair - the "U" simply means there is no known or inherent self-propagating condition by which Man is elected. It is a mystery of God according to His will.
    1. Psalm 3:8
      Salvation belongs to the LORD;your blessing be on your people! Selah

    2. Jonah 2:9
      But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you;what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the LORD!"
    ...salvation does not belong to Man.

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
     
    #7 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2008
  8. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I'll touch on this one later as time permits me.
     
    #8 Allan, Jun 17, 2008
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If salvation is conditioned according to God's will, it is not unconditonal. I agree salvation belongs to the Lord, and He has decreed how He has, and will give it...by faith in Christ.
    If God has "unconditionally" elected some for salvation, the converse is also true...He has "unconditionally" elected most for damnation. That defies any logic in stating man goes to hell because of sin. In actuality, if the "U" is true, the reprobate go to hell "unconditionally". The "U" is the petal that falls off the flower the fastest :)
     
    #9 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  10. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    I don't think you understand what the U stands for - the "condition" is apart from Man, not apart from God.

    Man's condition, Post-Fall is absolutely and equally condemned before God - there is no Man-driven recovery from this condition.

    God's election is "UN"-conditional - apart from Man's condition.

    If it were not, we would all be condemned from our natural condition.
     
    #10 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Oh, I understand what it means. Even if you state it's only from man's perspective, it doesn't add up that those who do not have faith in Christ are punished for this "condition" they did not, nor could meet. If salvation is granted unconditionally, faith is moot, and reprobation is ALSO unconditional.
     
    #11 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  12. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    Faith is not moot - faith is given by God and is conditional, but faith is given unconditionally of Man's works or merits.

    All Men are naturally unregenrate and are conditionally - that is because of their natural condition Post-Fall - condemned.

    see Ephesians 2:7-9
     
    #12 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Faith is given by God, only in it is given to all. It is the object of one's faith that saves, not faith. "Saving faith" is not found in Scripture. A faith that saves is. All mankind use faith every moment, every day. All men don't have faith in Christ, though.
     
    #13 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  14. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    Ephesians 2:8
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

    God, in His grace, gives saving faith to the elect. Any other faith is dead and is not from God. When faith is mentioned in Scripture, it is overwhelmingly pointing to saving faith in God.

    Acts 16:5
    So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily.

    THE faith is not the simple faith of unproven trust or belief. THE faith is the faith of our fathers. THE faith given by God to His elect.

    Hebrews 11
    1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
    2For by it the men of old gained approval.

    Assurance and conviction of the faith comes only through the Holy Spirit, given to the elect - all other faith is false - without ultimate assurance and conviction through deception.
     
    #14 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That verse is not talking about this alleged "saving faith". What "this" (or "that" in other translations) is referring to is the whole of "you are saved by grace through faith". Therefore, "this" is referring to salvation.

    THE faith is speaking of faith in Christ...not a faith given be God to His elect. You are eisegeting that into the text.

    There is no "the faith". Faith is faith. Where one puts there faith is what matters, not this special saving faith only given to the elect.
     
    #15 webdog, Jun 17, 2008
  16. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    I can see we are talking past one another.

    This is the core of synergism - I choose who I have faith in and elect myself.

    Completely unbiblical - very philosophical. Note which argument has the most Scriptural support.

    Scripture says that "salvation belongs to the Lord" - that we are saved by grace through faith which is God's gift. False faith is not a gift, it is a curse. Your argument is flawed at its premise.
     
    #16 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
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  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    That definitely is NOT what the "U" means. The "known or inherent" condition is God's choice according to Calvinism. According to the Bible, the "condition" is belief and trust.

    And the "condition" IS "self-propagating" according to free will in that it continues from "preacher to hearer."     Yes, salvation belongs to the Lord because He is the One who "justifies the ungodly." But it is according to their trust and obedience. According to Calvinism, I don't have to do a thing to be "elect." Is that really what the Bible says?

    I think you need to reread Heb 11. There is a commitment required of faith that you obviously discount as "works" or "human sovereignty" or some other thing that will keep you from being saved! But Abraham wasn't justified until he uprooted his family and headed for Israel. You, apparently, are of the "easy believism" crowd that think that Tinkerbell sprinkles you with pixy dust and you are "the elect."

    skypair
     
    #17 skypair, Jun 17, 2008
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  18. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I will get to the OP later tonight but I wanted to post on this one now.

    You are not talking past one another at all. He just is not accepting your version of things.

    Then you go off with this, that no one has made any statements about yet you feel complelled for some reason to go into a complete misunderstanding of what synergism is. You have twice used in two different threads conjecture of what someone Noo-Calvinstic holds to and have been wrong both times. (well one was the original cut-paste that was wrong but your wrong here in understanding of synergism).

    Secondly, the phrase 'gift of God' is used repeatedly in scripture by only regarding two things - 1. salvation; 2. spiritual gifts (there is not one of these gifts which all believers have).
    However, the phrase is never used for 'faith' in any manner. Just look for yourself:
    And in relation to Eph 2:8 - the context of the surrounding passages establish that the gift which is being spoken of is salvation not faith.

    I do believe that in a sense is a gift from God since without God intervening in mans life we would (and are justly so) bound for Hell. Thus God's outworking toward man that we might believe can be (in a sense) wrapped up in the whole aspect of it.

    However, all men have the capcity for faith as we because they place it in all manner of non-salvic things.

    Now just a quick thought for you to ponder here:
    On the premise that all men have the capcity of faith and the Calvinistic veiw of Regeneration -

    Would not the 'regeneration' of man efficiently enable mans natural capcity of faith already there to recieve the salvation of God?
    Why then does God need to give man faith (something he already has), when the truth is, the regeneration would enable that mans faith so that he would believe God savingly by his regenerated faith?
     
    #18 Allan, Jun 17, 2008
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I thought we got to the bottom of this last month, and as I remember it, the Calvinist won.
     
    #19 Jarthur001, Jun 17, 2008
  20. jdlongmire

    jdlongmire New Member

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    Skypair, I won't try and play word games with you - God's choosing any sinful person for salvation is a mystery. Belief and trust originate as a gift from God. A blind man cannot restore his own sight. A dead man cannot raise himself.

    Please show me the words or concept "free will" as it is used in respect to salvation. Anywhere. Please. First, do me a favor and define "free will".

    You are confused - He justifies apart from works and sanctifies through works. He saves as He wills.

    Is that what you are concerned about? That someone might get saved without doing anything? Doing good works is a fruit and an indicator of salvation through God's gift of faith, not a condition.

    Did Abraham chose God or did God chose Abraham?

    Genesis 17:1
    Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him,"I am God Almighty;Walk before Me, and be blameless.

    Is this a request?
    Genesis 17:5
    "No longer shall your name be called Abram,But your name shall be Abraham;For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

    What did Abraham do to merit this? Who did the action, here?

    Genesis 17:9
    God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.

    Is this a request?

    Skypair, if you resort to this level of silliness again, we are done with our discussion. This sort of statement does not deserve an answer and will not get one.
     
    #20 jdlongmire, Jun 17, 2008
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