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Calvinism within SBC

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Robert J Hutton, Dec 27, 2005.

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  1. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Gentlemen,

    I am now and have been in/around the Founder's Movement since its inception in the early 1980s. I studied with some of the movement's founders (forgive the pun) in my seminary and grad school work. I am presently involved in a writing project with some of them also.

    The SBC had two streams that came together in the beginning. There was the "Charleston Stream" that was Particular Redemption, learned clergy, more academic, etc. that the other stream. It was probably more "head" oriented than "heart" oriented. They were probably influenced by the English Puritans like Bunyan.

    The other stream was the "Sandy Creek" stream out of N. Carolina that was more influenced by the 1st & 2nd Awakenings. It was experiential, more emotional, less clergy seminary trained, and brought a segment of the "heart" into the then Baptist life.

    The particular redemption, limited atonement, Calvinistic branch represented the major portion of Baptists that formed the SBC in 1845 pre-war. We were one of the last to have our internal scrape over slaves. Out struggle also started in SC and was almost an identical harbinger that would occur at a little fort in SC in 1861. If the documents are considered, the language is even the same.

    The first confession of faith put together by the Southern Baptist was "The Abstract of Principles" by the Founders (hence the name of the present movement) of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (now in Louisville, KY). All who are interested should go to sbts.edu and look at the Abstract, it is still the way it was then (1859 and all the profs have to sign it publicly yearly).

    All four of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary founders were Calvinists. James Boyce, the first president, trained @ Princeton U. with the great Presbyterian Calvinists of the 19 Century.

    The "rub" comes with the fact that SBC Calvinism took its own impetus and direction. We followed after Andrew Fuller who was a "Calvinist with a warm heart for missions and the lost!" We have never seen that the two are mutually exclusive to true evangelism or missions.

    "Hyper-calvinistm" is going beyond what Calvin or the SBC Baptists would have taught. The Rev. Dr. John Gill was supposed to have had an aversion to preaching, if he knew anyone in the congregation was not a Christian. I personally believe that this is an apocryphal interpretation of him and his theology.

    But, if one looks at JL Dagg, PH Mell, Jesse Mercer, James Boyce, William Williams, John A. Broadus, Luther Rice, Adoniram Judson, etc., et al, that same one would see that the great # of 19th century Baptist were mostly Calvinist or at least Calvinistic.

    For what it is worth!

    sdg!

    rd
     
    #21 Rhetorician, Dec 27, 2005
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I think this article pretty well explains Hyper-Calvinism:

    LINK
     
    #22 KenH, Dec 27, 2005
  3. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Well Johnv I would have to disagree with you. I think truly seeing God for Who He is as the All Powerful, Almighty, Holy, Righteous God should strike fear into people. Of course we are not to stay in fear as the Bible says perfect love casts out all fear, but I think that is where the start of wisdom is.

    I would also have to disagree with you that respect, reverance and honor for the Lord is on the rise in churches today.

    The vast majority of Christians don't see much if anything wrong with Christianity/Church today, which is why the reference to Rev. chapter 3 and the letter to the Laodician church. But I wouldn't expect the vast majority to agree with what is said or the problems pointed out, because then we wouldn't be living in that age [​IMG]

    Christ is truly standing on the outside of many of the churches in America today, and from people oversees that I've spoken with it is happening abroad as well. And it will only get worse. The good news in that is that God has already told us that was going to happen, so we can take courage that His plan is continuing to unfold just as He said it would.

    However, that doesn't remove us from the responsibilty we have in the Lord to teach and preach His Word and be about His business until He returns. But more and more that will be on an individual basis as churches continue to push Christ and the Spirit out the front and/or back door.
     
    #23 J. Jump, Dec 27, 2005
  4. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    If this is what is being taught, I can "SEE" why churches are declining, their effors are all guided by man made doctrine rather than following the "SPIRIT".

    This "Professor", (so called) misinterpreted Romans 8:29 to mean that some are "predestined" to be saved/lost, but does the "predestined" mean to be saved/lost, "ABSOLUTELY NOT".

    Just what was "predestined"??

    The "SAVED" to "conform to Jesus's Image", but "Salvation" comes "BEFORE" the "Conforming".

    The "predestined" only takes effect "AFTER" being saved, not "BEFORE".

    "RIGHTLY DIVIDING" the word clearly is a problem for him and "HIS" doctrine.

    Here's a few of the "images" we're "predestined" to conform.

    Man depends too much on man/institutions for his guidance, rather than on his knees/Spirit, and make no mistake about it, "IT'S REVEALED".

    The "SPIRIT" can't be blamed for the "Falling away" of church membership, it never fails, when followed, and failure is proof, the Spirit is not involved.

    Man/denomination/doctrine can all do something that's "IMPOSSIBLE" for God to do,

    LIE

    Personally, I'm not going to trust Arminian or Calvin for my salvation/doctrine, but evidently some do, and that's the "PROBLEM".
     
    #24 Me4Him, Dec 28, 2005
  5. NateT

    NateT Member

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    Again, this has denegrated into a debate of C/A instead of discussing it's role within the SBC.

    As to the OP, I have wondered if there is going to be some sort of split coming in the future of the SBC. The conservative resurgence belongs to the previous generation of SBC pastors. Most of us that are going through seminary or starting or time as full time ministers don't remember much (or anything) of the resurgence. The issue now would seem to be between Calvinism and Arminian.

    However, I'm not sure it would actually cause the split, as many of the people in my generation are seeing less and less need for a denomination, and so might leave a school like SBTS and not go to an SBC church. Or my plant an independent church.

    I think something has to happen though, because from an outsider's view of the convention (I'm not privy to the inner-circle of big wigs) there seems to be growing tension between different theolgies.

    Hope that helps answer your question some.
     
    #25 NateT, Dec 28, 2005
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    That's certainly your opinion, and a valid one that I happen to agree with, but it's not what scripture referrs to when it says "fear of the Lord".
     
    #26 Johnv, Dec 28, 2005
  7. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    I've always been intrigued by this same issue Nate.

    Baptist churches here in WV are largely IFB or American baptists (a few SBC). I've met very few calvinistic baptists here except those who have been to seminary!

    Does a desire to have a conservative, biblically consistent, and scholarly defensible position have something to do with it? I don't know.
     
    #27 Charles Meadows, Dec 28, 2005
  8. NateT

    NateT Member

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    Here is a good analysis of the composition of the SBC right now.
     
    #28 NateT, Dec 28, 2005
  9. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    Charles Meadows,

    Seminary education is very similar to regular education. People tend to believe what they have been taught, to what they have been exposed, to whom they have been exposed, and what they have been forced to read. In the reading and education there is this process of having to grapple with thoughts, ideas, and men that never could have penetrated the mind otherwise.

    Many has been the time that I have personally seen young preachers come to seminary and hear of the Doctrines of Grace and go away even angry that they were even taught. Instead of trying to understand the system of doctrine, they "threw out the baby with the bath water" as it were.

    A graduate professional degree should try to tow the line between "Investigation" on one end of the spectrum with "Indoctrination" (read strong Orthodoxy) at the other end of the spectrum. What a classical education should do is to help the person develope a grid (or sein sp?) for themselves. That way (s)he could learn to think for themselves--to think critically!!!

    This Gospel of ours must engage the world that is without. That means that we must be open to some ideas that "are without...!"

    This is a very hard "tension" to maintain. On the one hand if one goes too far to the "indoctrination" end of the spectrum, then it can lapse into fundamentalism.

    If, on the other hand, one goes too much in the direction of the "investigation" then all types of liberalism at best and heresy at worst can appear.

    It is a connundrum(sp?) at best!

    An example out of my own life.

    My mom was reared in a Missionary Baptist Church in upper Mid. TN. They did not believe in educated or full time preachers. All their preachers needed was "knee-ology" not none of that "theology stuff!" The message was "just given to them" when they came to preach! And it was ashamed at what the ministers believed and preached; just for the lack of a fuller understanding of history, theology, church history, doctrine in all its iterartions, etc.

    Just a little "book-learnings" could have made so much difference. Go figure!

    You get the gist of what I am saying, I hope!!!

    Again, I have said way too much!

    sdg!

    rd
     
    #29 Rhetorician, Dec 28, 2005
  10. rbs

    rbs New Member

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    I certainly hope doctrine is important and becoming more important to the SBC.

    That being said, the decline in the number of baptisms has nothing to do with Calvinism or Arminianism, or what other "ism" you want to talk about. To say it (baptism decline) does is to get caught up in a doctrinal debate rather than the widely (and correctly) held belief to evangelism. Rather the reason that baptisms are in decline is because (1) folks don't share the Gospel with others, and (2) the hearts of many in America are simply hardened to the Gospel.

    Which is why we must continue to pray for the lost, share the Gospel, and increase our mission efforts. Instead, we supposed Christains get caught up in this debate - and don't get me wrong, doctrine IS important - just don't blame someone else and what they believe for YOUR not sharing the gospel.
     
    #30 rbs, Dec 28, 2005
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