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Calvinism

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by doug44, Jul 19, 2002.

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  1. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    Calvinism is bad theology...believers in Christ are saved by Gods Grace...not the luck of the draw....leaning on a calvinistic premise allows for the attitude of thinking we have no responsibilty to tell the unsaved about salvation through Jesus Christ. "Predestined" refers to Christ knowing who would and wouldn't accept Him...What kind of Grace pulls rabbits out of the hat to decide who is going to be saved and who isn't? We were all born depraved in equal standing before God...No one had better odds than another coming into this world for being saved. We ALL have the free will to reject or accept Jesus and the gift of salvation.
     
    #1 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  2. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    not the best analogy on my part concerning "rabbits out of the hat". point i was trying to make is we are saved by Gods Grace not luck.To be saved without free will and without Gods Grace would just be the luck of being that so called predestined to salvation individual. we aint robots. if we are to be calvinistic about our destiny then why bother making any choices about anything? that leaves us to be eternal yes men/women. That is what is so wonderful about God...he gave us a choice of our own free will to accept him or reject Him...Calvanism insinuates that God forced His salvation upon us...When in truth God in His sovereignty let mankind decide to choose Him or reject Him.
     
    #2 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I thank God that He saved me without me having to rely on the luck of the draw.

    Non-Calvinists base the opportunity for one to be saved purely on luck - being born in a country where the gospel is freely available is a big, big plus for them, having more opportunity than others is a big, big plus for them, having access to TV and radio and books and tracts is a big, big plus for them. According to non-Calvinists if you happen to have been lucky enough to have been born at the right place at the right time and lucky enough hear the right preacher who said just the right thing to prompt you to arise out of your spiritual coffin by your own free will decision power, and if you just happen to be lucky enough to have more sense, be smarter, and more spiritually minded than that reprobate next door, well, then, and only then will you be saved and then only if by your free will decision power you keep making that same free will decision by your own power to keep being saved will you make it to the end of life in a saved condition. It's amazing that they don't advocate praying to the unsaved person instead of God concerning salvation since they think the unsaved person already has all the "tools" needed to be saved through their own free will decision power. Praying to God for someone's salvation appears to be inconsistent with their theology.

    Non-Calvinist soteriology is awful. I thank God they are wrong. [​IMG]

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...

    [ July 19, 2002, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #3 KenH, Jul 19, 2002
  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Doug44 your argument is with the scriptures not us and we are saying nothing that cannot be defended by scriptures and sound doctrine. If biblical doctrine does not match yours... then yours is wrong. The doctrines of God and men do not equal each other... Brother Glen :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:
     
    #4 tyndale1946, Jul 19, 2002
  5. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    i'm not "arguing" anything...just making a point... [​IMG] and on point about being lucky enough to hear the gospel as we do because we are in the United States? we are fortunate in that respect...but the spirit of God is no less present in the remotest part of the earth then it is in the heart of its most populous cities...He speaks no different to us whether we are of one or one of many millions...its our responsibilty to answer the call of Gods salvation....we will be held accountable for choices we have made and not made in exercising our free will whether it be in Christ or apart from Christ.
     
    #5 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The problem as I see it is that many non-Calvinists start lambasting Calvinism without even knowing what the doctrines of grace are teaching. They ought to read a basic book like Grace Unknown by R.C. Sproul so that they can rationally discuss the issue. [​IMG]

    Thanks be to God for the doctrines of grace,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
    #6 KenH, Jul 19, 2002
  7. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    i'm not "arguing" anything...just making a point... [​IMG] and on point about being lucky enough to hear the gospel as we do because we are in the United States? we are fortunate in that respect...but the spirit of God is no less present in the remotest part of the earth then it is in the heart of its most populous cities...He speaks no different to us whether we are of one or one of many millions...its our responsibilty to answer the call of Gods salvation....we will be held accountable for choices we have made and not made in exercising our free will whether it be in Christ or apart from Christ.
     
    #7 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  8. Odemus

    Odemus New Member

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    Tell that to the billions and billions who have lived their entire lives devoid of the knowledge of the Gospel.
     
    #8 Odemus, Jul 19, 2002
  9. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    Odemus...as i said before....we are all born with a conscience... doesnt matter if you live in New York City or a hut in the middle of nowhere...God gave us that voice within to choose to accept or reject him...ignorance is no excuse to reject God.....we are all accountable...
     
    #9 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  10. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    Because of the God Consciousness "awareness" in every man...no one is devoid of the knowledge of God...not having a bible doesnt make one devoid of the knowledge of God...God speaks to us through his creation as well as His written word....
     
    #10 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    And we are all born spiritual dead(Ephesians 2), incapable of lifting a finger to attain spiritual life, and in need of regeneration by Holy Spirit by His sovereign will.

    Thanks be to God for salvation by His grace,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
    #11 KenH, Jul 19, 2002
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    And we are all born spiritual dead, incapable of lifting a finger to attain spiritual life, and in need of regeneration by the Holy Spirit by His sovereign will.

    Thanks be to God for salvation by His grace,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...

    [ July 19, 2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #12 KenH, Jul 19, 2002
  13. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    Ken...Ephesians 2 and what verse??? what youre quoting isnt in my bible and im using the KJV. Even with your twisted quote or translation thats not an accurate reference...we are all "spirtually dead" unless we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour...everyone is born with a conscience...where do you think the conscience originates from??? the heart of man?? or the heart of God?
     
    #13 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Check out Psalm 51:5 and Ephesians 2:1. [​IMG]

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...

    [ July 19, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #14 KenH, Jul 19, 2002
  15. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    Ken,

    Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened (made alive) , who were dead in trespasses in sins"

    ok...and your point is? yes He has made us alive who were dead in our sins...no arguemnt there....

    Psalm 51:5 "Behold, i was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me"

    ok...no arguement there either....i dont see an arguement for or against Calvinism in either verse...

    at this point as we now travel in circles on the subject i just assume give it a rest...its not a contest anyway but good to know what we believe and why we believe it....
     
    #15 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  16. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Doug, Ask yourself these questions. As an IFB, you should be Calvinistic in your view of sotierology... there is nothing more fundamental.

    1- Is man totally depraved?
    2- Can man do anything to save himself or add to what Christ has done? NO= unconditional election YES= conditional election
    3- Does Christ blood cover all sins or just those of the believers? This is not a question about its sufficiency.
    4- If you said NO to #2 then you must agree that we are chosen by God. If God chooses to save us then can we resist His Sovereign will?
    5- Can salvation be lost? If not, is perserverance dependent on man's strength or God's?
     
    #16 Scott J, Jul 19, 2002
  17. doug44

    doug44 New Member

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    Excellent questions Scott

    1) yes man is totally depraved
    2) no we cant save ourselves or add to the what Christ has done
    3) Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind
    4) the elect are those who are saved by choosing of their own free will to accept Christ as Saviour...God wishes that no one should perish...but He still lets us use our will to decide to believe or not believe
    5) salvation cant be lost...Christ died once and for all on the cross for all of humanities sins....past..present and future....He wants us to come to Him with a free will seeking the Gift of His Salvation...we don't perservere to be saved..we either are or we arent...doing good works for Him should be our hearts desire when we are saved but it doesnt add or take away from our salvation...doing good works for Him should be done out of love and as an act of obedience to what Christ commands of those who believe in Him.
     
    #17 doug44, Jul 19, 2002
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    How non-Calvinists fail to see how they contradict themselves is amazing. :rolleyes:

    One redeemed by Christ's finished work alone without adding my "free will decision power",

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
    #18 KenH, Jul 19, 2002
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The doctrine of self election isn't taught in my Bible!... I know it's not taught in Kens bible either but I do know where it came from!

    Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit... It came straight from the father of it!... Man by an act of will can attain divinity!... Yeah hath God said!... Brother Glen :eek: :eek: :eek:

    [ July 19, 2002, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
    #19 tyndale1946, Jul 19, 2002
  20. absturzen

    absturzen New Member

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    I think the biggest stumbling stone for a "non-calvinist" who is truly a child of God is understanding what regeneration is or more importantly what it does. Once they understand it, the Doctrines of Grace cannot be denied.

    1)Dead Spiritual (You cannot believe or accept spiritual things while you are dead 1st Corinthians 2:8-16)

    2)Regeneration (Reborn, Now a person can see the kingdom of God. He is receptive to spiritual things. John3:3)

    3) Conversion (Now he can receive spiritual things,He NOW is able to "accept" Christ. John 6:47 John 6:37)

    True conversion cannot happen until regeneration. Granted sometimes this may occur within the same moment but regeneration still comes first. It is a necessity to be able to believe.

    So with that we know only someone that is born again can truly believe.

    The next question would be is where does regeneration come from? From God Alone. (1st Corinthians 12:3)

    Are all regenerated? No.

    Then can all believe? No.

    Stevie

    [ July 19, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: absturzen ]
     
    #20 absturzen, Jul 19, 2002
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