1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Calvinism's fatal flaw

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Feb 2, 2003.

Top Posters
Page 1 of 8
  1. William C

    William C New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm new to this board but I've been debating Calvinists for years and I see one basic fatal flaw within Calvinism's belief system.

    Calvinists interpret texts that are in reference to the first apostles of Christ as being applicable to all believers. Yet, these same Calvinists believe in the Divine Inspiration of Scripture comes from the first apostles and they also support Apostolic Authority. This belief clearly teaches that the apostles were trusted with the inspirational writing of God's Word and the spread and starting of the Christian Church. How can we expect to have the same exact "treatment" as did the original disciples who did not originally have the Holy Spirit giving them guidance.

    John 17, the prayer of Jesus, shows how he treats the original disciples differently that "those who believe by their message." He refers to his apostles as "ones whom the father had given him" but he does not refer to us in the same manner.

    John 15:16: I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit. Once again is addressing the apostles, not all believers.

    In John 6, Jesus in speaking in the context of his original disciples, who were especially "foreordained" or chosen to be the ones God used to carry out his plan of redemption to the world. Which is also applicable to John 10.

    There are dozens of other verses like these that are in reference to these ordain apostles, but Calvinists falsely interpret them to apply to all future believers as well. We don't have the same benefits and authority that the orginal disciples had therefore we should not assume that all the verses in reference to them should also apply to us.

    Calvinists need to have a lesson in Hermanutics before they continue to falsely interpret the scriptures.

    Bro. Bill
     
    #1 William C, Feb 2, 2003
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    41,997
    Likes Received:
    1,488
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you for the kind words and your sweet Christian demeanor exhibited in your first post in this forum. :D
     
    #2 KenH, Feb 2, 2003
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    41,997
    Likes Received:
    1,488
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Since the whole New Testament was written in the context of His original disciples in the 1st Century, it sounds like you are saying none of the Bible applies to anyone other than the people to whom the Bible was originally written.
     
    #3 KenH, Feb 2, 2003
  4. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    2TI 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2TI 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    Should I believe Paul, writing under the direction of the Holy Spirit, or should I believe you?

    I'll stay with Paul and the Holy Spirit. ;) ;)
     
    #4 Monergist, Feb 2, 2003
  5. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,817
    Likes Received:
    2
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Brother Bill:
    Calvinists need to have a lesson in hermanutics before they continue to falsely interpret the scriptures.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Bill, glad to hear that you've been waging the war for so many years against Calvinists who you say don't understand the NT. Obviously you're loosing the battle cause our tribe is increasing every year at least among Southern Baptists!
    Keep up the good work and keep up the great approach! You're bound to drive many more Arminians to our fold!
     
    #5 Hardsheller, Feb 2, 2003
  6. William C

    William C New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
     
    #6 William C, Feb 2, 2003
  7. brandontmilan

    brandontmilan New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    thats what i was wondering... just out of curiousity, would the texts that say that liars, murderers, adulterers, etc. won't be in the Kingdom of God, also be referring only to the disciple's contemporaries?? perhaps when the Bible says, that all who believe on Jesus will be saved, it was only referring to the chosen apostles... perhaps when the church was said to be the bride of Christ, only the apostalic church is actually the 'bride of christ'... maybe where it says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, that was only referring to the people of that time... hmmm... it appears that your thinking has the fatal error... (i mean your thinking on this issue, not your thinking in general :D )
    perhaps if you answer this question, i might understand a little better... are there any verses where Jesus mentions future believers as distinct from the disciples??
     
    #7 brandontmilan, Feb 2, 2003
  8. William C

    William C New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're avoiding the arguement so I'm ignoring your post. Let's address the arguement, not your perception of who is winning a "war".

    Bro. Bill
     
    #8 William C, Feb 2, 2003
  9. William C

    William C New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    Neither of these verses address my arguement. If you think they do, you don't understand my arguement. Read it again.

    Bro. Bill
     
    #9 William C, Feb 2, 2003
  10. TheTravelingMinstrel

    TheTravelingMinstrel New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    0
    Neither of these verses address my arguement. If you think they do, you don't understand my arguement. Read it again.

    Bro. Bill     </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture interperets scripture. You cannot isolate particular verses and derive conclusions.
    You conclusion must fall in accordance with the rest of scripture.

    He is showing you, from scripture, that your arguement that those verses only applied to the apostles is a flawed arguement.
     
    #10 TheTravelingMinstrel, Feb 2, 2003
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    41,997
    Likes Received:
    1,488
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I see. So other posters are the examples you follow rather than trying to follow the example of Jesus?

    Debate all you want. If you think you have all of the answers and you are going to wipe out Calvinism, I have news for you. 100 years from now, if we are not in the golden age of the church or Jesus has not returned yet, there will still be people who believe in salvation by God's free grace and those who believe in salvation by man's free will.
     
    #11 KenH, Feb 2, 2003
  12. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,635
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would you please interpret Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 for us? With a correct hermeneutical interpretation, of course!
     
    #12 Rev. G, Feb 2, 2003
  13. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course, one could argue that since Romans was written to the church at Rome and Ephesians to the church at Ephesus then they don't apply to anyone else.
     
    #13 Monergist, Feb 2, 2003
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    11,010
    Likes Received:
    2,404
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What is the name of this new doctrine that the Calvinist never heard of Billism? :confused: ... Then again we let scripture interpret scripture and isims and schisms have followed Gods children thoughout the ages of the church... Fullerites... Campbellites... And a new one we can add to the list Billites :rolleyes: ... Oh Brother :( ... Brother Glen :eek:
     
    #14 tyndale1946, Feb 2, 2003
  15. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    tyndale, looks like an hyper-dispensational argument to me. Nothing new.
     
    #15 Monergist, Feb 2, 2003
  16. C.R. Gordon

    C.R. Gordon New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    my friend,
    "I do not ask whether you believe Calvinism. It is possible that you do not. But I believe you will before you enter heaven. I am persuaded that as God may have washed your hearts, He will wash your brains before you enter heaven."
     
    #16 C.R. Gordon, Feb 2, 2003
  17. William C

    William C New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of all people, Calvinists should know better than to play the old "label them so you can dismiss them" card. You've been labeled and dismissed all too often. I think you're view makes some very convincing arguements, I evened believed them myself for a time. But after much study on the subject in the original language I've come to a clearer understanding of the text and the author's intentions. Be careful not to close your mind to differing views just because your ignorant of them. Arminians and Calvinists alike have been guilty of this for centuries.

    Bro. Bill
     
    #17 William C, Feb 3, 2003
  18. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    41,997
    Likes Received:
    1,488
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just remember to be ready to change your views once again. I have changed several of my views after I switched from being a Pelagian to being a Calvinist. [​IMG]
     
    #18 KenH, Feb 3, 2003
  19. William C

    William C New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    Catch phrases and quotes don't impress me. Deal with the issues.

    Bro. Bill
     
    #19 William C, Feb 3, 2003
  20. William C

    William C New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just remember to be ready to change your views once again. I have changed several of my views after I switched from being a Pelagian to being a Calvinist. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Did I ever say I would not change my views. I might, if someone could present some tangiable arguements, instead of labelling and dismissing, critizing my demenor as not being enough "like Jesus," and quoting passages that have nothing to do with my original arguement. Come on, I thought you Calvinists were smarter than that. Debate the issue.

    Bro. Bill
     
    #20 William C, Feb 3, 2003
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 8
Loading...