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CALVINISM'S TEACHING OF TOTAL INABILITY IS UNFOUNDED IN SCRIPTURE

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Feb 18, 2003.

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  1. William C

    William C New Member

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    WILL NO ONE ANSWER THESE ARGUMENTS?

    There are three groups of people in scripture:

    1. Hardened Israel: Jews who have been hardened because of their rebellion to God.

    2. The Remnant: Jews who have not been hardened but have been saved by Grace through faith, so that God’s purpose of redemption would be fulfilled through them. The Apostles are among this group and were divinely chosen for a unique purpose.

    3. Gentiles: A sinful people who have not been hardened like the Israelites, because they have never been presented entrance into Covenant and rejected it like the Israelites had done for generations. They, unlike Hardened Israel, will listen. (Acts 28:28) And they, unlike Harden Israel, have the ability to respond to the genuine call of the gospel. (Matt. 21:43)

    What does Calvinism’s Total Depravity teach about man?
    Answer: That man is so sinful they are unable to see, hear, understand or receive the things of God. Right?

    That’s the same definition as “hardening” in scripture: Look at these verses: Romans 10 and 11; Acts 28:25-28; John 12:37-41; Matt. 21:42-43 (to name a few)

    I'll quote a short one for you to read:
    Mark 4:10-12:
    When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, 'The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.'"

    Total Inability is Hardening! No one will be hardened until he has refused the things of God, as the Israelites had done for generations. The Gentiles had never been invited into covenant and the scripture clearly teaches that Israel (except the Remnant) are the only ones who receive this Hardening.

    Notice what this passage says! "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" In other words, if not for the active hardening of God they "might turn and be forgiven," therefore those who are not being hardened (the Remnant and the Gentiles) can turn and be forgiven.

    Here is a question for all of you Calvinists: Why would God need to "harden" Israel if, according to your beliefs, they were already “Totally Hardened” by the fall?

    And what is the difference between "hardening" and "total inability?"

    Calvinism doesn't make sense in light of God's clear teaching on the Hardening of Israel!

    If "Total Inability" crumbles the whole Calvinistic system of Soteriology comes tumbling down with it.

    TIMBERRRRRRRRRR!!! :eek:

    What say ye?

    With Respect,
    Bro. Bill

    [ February 19, 2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bill ]
     
    #1 William C, Feb 18, 2003
  2. romanbear

    romanbear New Member

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    Bro bill [​IMG]
    I agree with this message;
    ---------------------------------------
    Calvinism doesn't make sense in light of God's clear teaching on the Hardening of Israel!

    If "Total Inability" crumbles the whole Calvinistic system of Soteriology comes tumbling down with it.

    TIMBERRRRRRRRRR!!!
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Romanbear
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #2 romanbear, Feb 18, 2003
  3. William C

    William C New Member

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    Well Romanbear, I guess you and I agree with this post.

    Don't you think the Calvinist's silence on this issue is quite revealing? [​IMG]
     
    #3 William C, Feb 18, 2003
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Congratulations, you 2 have disproved Calvanism. Now you can move on to other topics.
     
    #4 Grasshopper, Feb 18, 2003
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, Romanbear and Bro. Bill can't take credit for that, then they would have something to boast about.

    Moderators close down this board, Calvinism has been destroyed. :eek:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #5 Skandelon, Feb 18, 2003
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Arminians will continue to be arminians... And Calvinist will continue to be calvinists... And never the twain shall meet!... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist brethren :rolleyes:
     
    #6 tyndale1946, Feb 18, 2003
  7. William C

    William C New Member

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    Three Calvinists bothered to post a message on my thread by not one of them even attempted to answer any of my arguments? I wonder why?

    You guys aren't going to let me down again are you?

    This issue is at the very root of Calvinism's system and no one is going to even attempt to defend it?

    And don't go saying that you have already! I've read every single post in response to mine regarding "hardening" and no one has handled these arguments. If I missed something please just direct me to the place and date and I'll stand corrected.

    I await your responses.
     
    #7 William C, Feb 18, 2003
  8. tnelson

    tnelson New Member

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    Rom.5:6
    For when we were still without strenght, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    Unregenrated sinners are spiritually dead and helpless. They are incapable of doing anything to help themselves.

    Rom. 8:7-8
    Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject ot the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    The unregenrated sinner is enmity ( at war against God)

    Eph.2:1
    And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

    A sobering reminder of the total sinfulness and lostness from which believers have been redeemed.
    "In" indicates the realm or sphere in which unregenerate sinners exist. They are not dead because of sinful acts that have been commited but because of their sinful nature.

    Eph.2:5
    even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

    Far more than anything else, a spiritually dead person needs to be made alive by God. Salvation brings spiritual life to the dead. The power that raises believers out of death and makes them alive is the same power that energizes every aspect of Christian living.

    mike
     
    #8 tnelson, Feb 18, 2003
  9. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    All peoples came from the sons of Noah. :confused:

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #9 Frogman, Feb 18, 2003
  10. William C

    William C New Member

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    I know you really want this verse to say that, but it doesn't. It says we were "without strength" when Christ died for us. What does that have to to with "inability" to respond to the call of the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. Jesus says, "Come to me all who are weak and heavey laden." Even the weak can rest in Christ through faith. Nothing is said about inability when confronted with the power of the gospel.

    Again, nothing about inability to respond to the gospel. This merely says that the carnal mind can't please God and is at enmity against God and cannot subject himself to the Law of God. We all agree with that! This is true of all people who have not been born of the spirit, but the issue is how does one become born of spirit. This verse doesn't answer that question, nor does it say that man is unable to respond when God calls him through the power of the gospel.

    Nothing in this passage contradicts the means by which God makes us alive. Through the means of faith in Christ. Once again it says nothing about man's inability to respond to the powerful call of God through the gospel.

    Sorry, none of these passages say that man is incapable of responding to God's calling through the gospel presentation. Keep looking and BTW, I've got a question for you:
    If the fall of man already made Israel along with the rest of mankind total hardened to God, why does both the OT and the NT go to such great lengths to express to us that God uniquely "hardened" Israel, while leaving the Remnant and the Gentiles "unhardened?" Doesn't seem redundant to you to "harden" a group of people who is already hardened by the fall of man?

    What are your thoughts?

    With Respect,
    Bro. Bill
     
    #10 William C, Feb 19, 2003
  11. William C

    William C New Member

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    All peoples came from the sons of Noah. :confused:
    </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue here.

    Are you saying that the Gentiles were hardened like the Jews because they were children of Noah?

    Or

    Are you saying that since the Gentiles were sons of Noah they as a people were also offered entrance into Covenant with God before the New Covenant of Grace?

    Either way, you've got a host of scripture to explain.

    What are you saying exactly?

    Bill
     
    #11 William C, Feb 19, 2003
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    From the blessing of Noah, the descendants of Shem were prophesied to be the people of God, while the descendants of Ham and Japheth were not. It was not necessary that God harden the Gentile peoples.

    Though scripture records, even in Pharoah, that God did at times harden these people(s) to fulfill His purpose.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #12 Frogman, Feb 19, 2003
  13. William C

    William C New Member

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    So, what argument are you making?

    Gentiles didn't need to be hardened because they already were hardened?

    Is that scriptural?

    Also, were Israelites not affected by the Fall in the same way the Gentiles were so God had to harden them?

    I'm still not sure what your argument is? Do you even know or are you just speculating? (not that there is anything wrong with that)

    Thanks,
    Bill
     
    #13 William C, Feb 19, 2003
  14. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    All men are hardened; individually and yes, nationally, this is scripturally documented. Along the time of the expulsion, all who were in the bowels of Adam were thus hardened. There is nothing wrong with speculation if you are wildcating, otherwise, scripture is plain about the depravity of man. Some just don't want to admit their depravity because they view themselves as being morally good. I know because I am a man of flesh and blood also.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #14 Frogman, Feb 19, 2003
  15. William C

    William C New Member

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    Are you implying that Arminians think that mankind is morally good? I don't.

    I believe in the depravity of man. Just not the "total inablity" of man as taught by Calvinism.

    Could you provide some scriptural support for your beliefs on hardening. The NT speaks of Israel being uniquely hardened as compared to the Gentiles who "will listen" (Acts 28:28) and are given the kingdom (Matt. 21:43). It never speaks of Gentiles being hardened as you assert. Can you explain?

    How do these passages fit into your beliefs?
     
    #15 William C, Feb 19, 2003
  16. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Pharoah hardened himself, and God hardened him.

    The truth Bro. Bill, you don't believe in the depravity of man, depravity is not something that has levels or degrees, sin is what seperates us from God.

    The sons of Noah each came across the waters of the flood with Noah, Japheth and Ham came across as did Shem.

    God chose the descendants of Shem as His people. The descendants of Japheth and Ham were not chosen as the people of God, however, they were hardened either by their total depravity or by God in order that His purposes should stand.

    The Tower of Babel is an example. Man of his own will decides to build a tower to heaven. Why would God not want this? Why would he confuse their tongues to prevent this co-operation, they were after all, from their own will, attempting to reach heaven, the abode of God, were they not?

    But they were not doing this according to the Will and Purpose of God. Thus, they were confused and dispersed across the world.

    This was an act of God, not of man and shows a hardening of the Gentiles such that they could not so cooperate and seek after God.

    Bro Dallas
     
    #16 Frogman, Feb 19, 2003
  17. William C

    William C New Member

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    What about the scriptures that I have presented that contradict you premise. Israel was hardened so that the Gentiles could be grafted in, nothing is said of Gentiles being hardened too. That seems like it would be worth mentioning.

    Israel cannot hear but the Gentiles will listen according to Paul in Acts 28. What do you say to that?

    Where specifically in the scripture does it say that he has "hardened" or made the Gentiles "deaf" and "blind" as he speaks about the Jews in the passages that I listed in the original post.

    Dallas, your going to have to do better than the tower of babble, it included all nations. And the term or even the language of "hardening" is not spoken of in the text. Is it?

    You still have some explaining to do on this issue.
     
    #17 William C, Feb 19, 2003
  18. sturgman

    sturgman New Member

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    I think you are focusing on simantecs too much. It is like writing a thesis on why you don't believe in language. Nice trick though, I must say.

    I don't see how you say that Israel was hardened then and not at the fall. And no, it would not be redundant, for Israel is treated much differently throughout the whole of scripture. They are his chosen nation, they were given the word of God, they had every oportunity over the gentiles, they are described as being picked up, cleaned up, loved, and God commited to love them for His own namesake (Ezekiel 16) So to say that Israel is hardened, is one thing, to make the jump that gentiles are not,k is something altogether different.

    Your arguement is always the same. You make the scripture Posibly apply to one group of people. Then you say, that it could not apply to anyone else. Then you say that those are the only people affected (without proof). And therefore you make faulty assumptions.

    I have to say Bro Bill, you are a master of debate. But most of the masters of debate I know could be just as effective on the wrong point.

    You fail to provide a link as to say that the gentile, outside of the movement of God is not hardened. It isn't in there. So if we have to assume they are not hardened to validate your point, then that would be jumping to conclusions. Anywhere in scriptures where it speaks of the gentiles coming to God, it is described as a work of God. You are trying to get us to argue about hardening, when that is not the issue of debate.

    You do make me think though, I like that, keeps me on my toes.

    In love,
    sturgman
     
    #18 sturgman, Feb 19, 2003
  19. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    If God desires man to seek him and find him of man's own free-will, why was the Tower of Babel an issue with God?

    Because man was attempting to define God and worship through a totally depraved will of man. Thus God dispersed man, and Gentiles means nations, other than Israel.

    I think the "assumption" stands as an example of Total Depravity of man as is permeated throughout scripture.

    Otherwise, the 'free-will' choice of man to build a tower to the abode of God should have pleased the Creator; and would have if not initiated from the Depraved will of man. Total Depravity struck a death blow to the will of man, that only the Will of God can change.

    Explanation in Full. (Assuming, of course, my assumption is approved by the majority of people, though if not, stubbornly I shall 'endeavor to perservere.') :D [​IMG]

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #19 Frogman, Feb 19, 2003
  20. William C

    William C New Member

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    There is no trick here, just scripture. Israel was blinded and deafened by God because of their continual rebellion. The Gentiles hadn't rebelled because to that point they hadn't been chosen to receive God's covenant. It's simply scripture. The fact that you think its "tricky" or some kind of "slight of hand" makes me think you just don't know how to answer these questions in the light of your Calvinistic view so you assume I'm some kind of a master of debate and lingustic slight of hand. Couldn't it be that you just wrong?

    Wait, where does scripture say that God hardened the Gentiles? In Acts 28 Paul contrasts the Gentiles with the Israelites by quoting the OT which says they are blind and deaf but he goes on to say that the Gentiles will listen. (Acts 28:28). Paul would be contradicting himself if the Gentiles were hardened as the Israelites were. And Romans 11 wouldn't make any sense at all.

    You make Rom. 11 say:
    Israel was hardened so as to graft in the Gentiles who were also hardened, so neither of them can believe and provoke anyone else to jealousy.

    Your assumption that the Gentiles are also hardened contradicts the text. And don't say that I'm making an assumption here, I'm not. Israel is clearly hardened, you have to provide the scriptural support that says the Gentiles are hardened, so DO NOT go back to that whole "assumption" bit. This is totally your assumption not mine!

    I'm assuming nothing here. The scripture says "Israel was hardened." In contrast Paul says the Gentiles will listen. I see no where in the text where the Gentiles are said to be hardened. You are making that claim. Where is your scriptural support for that claim?

    I fail to provide the link? Ha ha ha ha ha ha I'm just saying what the text tells us. You're the one who is saying that both the Gentiles and the Jews were hardened by God and you have no scriptural evidence of that except to say that when they come to God it is a by his working. Well, yeppie, we all agree with that. The power of the gospel is a work of God! The Gentiles inablitity to respond to the power of the gospel is not in the text.

    Well, I'm going to keep you up there on those toes because you've got some scripture to start looking up if you want to support your claims in this post.

    Thanks brother,
    Bill
     
    #20 William C, Feb 19, 2003
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