Calvinism's Total Depravity verses Scriptural Hardening

1Cor2 says nothing about hardening. It speaks of being taught by the Spirit and combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

It speaks of "the things freely given to us by God".

Your view that the Gospel is explicitly or implicitly excluded from that list of spiritual topics/concepts etc is not supported in the text.

In fact in 1Cor1 :18 Paul has explicitly identified the Gospel as "foolishness" to the lost - to the unsaved world. Instead of "excluding" that - it is explicitly included.

No. In my view all of mankind that is turning away from the Drawing of God (which is ALL the lost at any point in time ) is subject to the conditions listed. The "door" is only in submitting to the drawing of God. It is not in being able to comprehend the spiritual concepts of 1Cor 1:18 the cross "on your own". Paul is correct in saying that it appears to be "foolishness" at the very start - to the unbeliever.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It also accounts for the sweeping statement "there is NON righteous no not ONE" and "NO one seeks after God" by saying that this is in the context of "man on his own".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because IF a free will condition existed apart from God, apart from the drawing - then man ON HIS OWN should be "choosing God" and "seeking God" -- "Seeking LIFE". He should be able to discern that He is lost and going to hell and that eternal LIFE is better than eternal death.

Maybe not ALL would "choose life" but "some should". To say that "NNE seeks after God" is to say that ALL are CHOOSING hell.

It would be like saying "well of course ALL choose to starve themselves to death". When in fact that is not what "ALL" should choose IF they really had the power of choice.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. Hardening - responding to a compelling urging of God to accept the Gospel - by turning from it. Resulting in rapid progression toward total coldness and non-response to the drawing of God.

#2. Slavery to sin - CHOOSING to turn from the solution that God provides - and deal with sin (temptation) in your own power. You are overcome by it.

One may not be turning from an urgent demand by the Holy Spirit to accept the Gospel - and still sin.

In other words - you are not "always under conviction" to accept the Gospel. Conviction comes in waves - but sinning happens on a more constant basis. They are not the same thing.

It is useful to observe the Bible concept of depravity since it accounts for the slavery that we see in Romans 6, and Ephesians 2:1-7 where the god of this world dictates to the lost and they must obey. In addition their own sinful nature dictates to them and they are "slaves to sin" without the ability to free themselves.

IN that context - waves of conviction enter in. That conviction prompts them to repent, confess and accept Christ. It does not give them power over sin APART from Christ.

Yes in the sense that by their very nature - the sinful nature - they were "At war" against God's law (Romans 7). The heart set on the flesh DID not and COULD not submit to the will/word/law of God.

Agreed. They were not born "hardened". The waves of conviction had not been rejected.

True but they were not saints FIRST and then turning from sainthood - they find themselves in rebellion. Rather "The HEART IS deceitfully wicked" to start with. There is no one who seeks God - to start with. There is no one righteous - to start with.

We are not born saints - with Godly characters that then turn to rebellion.

We start with the heart that is "deceitfully wicked".

From our very birth we "need salvation".

From our very birth we "need the new birth"

From our very birth we need the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

I believe that the ONLY choice that lost has IS NOT "sin or not sin" nor is it "spiritually discern the Gospel or not" - it is to "yield to the convicting work of the Holy Spirit" or not.

As long as they are not yielding to the Holy Spirit - they are "enslaved to sin". They are continuing down a course that will eventually harden them. Notice that in Ephesians 2:1-7 we have that very theme as well as Romans 6 speaking of our walk apart from Christ as slavery as being dictated to by the god of this world.

The Calvinist means "Unable to believe on your own without the drawing power of God".

And so do I.

The difference is, I accept that God "Draws all mankind".

Your argument regarding "unable to believe" in opposition to that can only be "ABLE to believe ON your own WITHOUT the drawing power of God".

That is a hard point to sustain from scripture for the heart that is "Deceitfully wicked" and that "does NOT seek after God".

God does not harden anyone - by malice. It is the "goodness of God that leads you to repentance" but it is also the goodness of God that (when rejected) hardens the heart. Only in that sense does God harden.

You are wrong there. The hardening of the Jews was not the will of God. In fact in Luke 7 Christ says of those who turned from God "They rejected God's Purpose for Them". He says "We played the flute and you did not dance so we sang a dirge and you would not weep".

In Matt 23 He says that He LONGED to spare their children "But you would not". He shows himself sending messenger after messenger - but they refuse HIS KINDNESS and in so doing - they harden themselves. God did not "require" their loss.

Even in the OT - the mission of Israel was "A kingdom of PRIESTS", "A light to the nations" they were sent as "My witnesses" to teach the nations about the Messiah - the ONE Gospel, the fall of mankind and the promise of salvation. From the very start God's house was to be "A house of Prayer for ALL nations".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Romans 1 identifies both the principle of total depravity AND of Hardening.

Total depravity: The condition we are BORN in that makes us uNABLE to comprehend spiritual truth and makes us UNABLE to submit to God's Word.

Harding: - The REJECTION of the DRAWING of God resulting in further hardening against future drawing of God - and advancement down the path of sinful rebellion.

If we ACCEPT the DRAWING of God - we do not lose our sinful nature - but rather - Romans 7 "War" is declared between the newly created "NEW" creation and the OLD nature. We must choose to yield to Christ by using the ENABLING given to us through the DRAWING of God, the work of the Holy Spirit, the NEW creation setup within.

But the OLD sinful depraved nature still exists. If we choose to turn from the DRAWING of God - we are choosing to remain in a life of total slavery to sin (Romans 6, Eph 2:1-5.).

If we turn away from that drawing AFTER being saved then we are RETURNING to the state of total depravity whose ONLY means of escape is NOT "to seek God on our own" or to "understand spiritual truth of our own power" - but to "yield AGAIN to the DRAWING power of God".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Romans 3 does not say "SOME have come to the point that they do not seek after God after considerable hardening".

It says "NNE seeks after God" in the same context as "ALL both Jews and Greeks are under sin... ALL have sinned... by the works of the law shall NO FLESH be justified".

#1. There is no good way to get that worked back into "SOME are hardened and do not seek after God but others are not so hardened and they DO seek after God".

#2. The case I describe is comparable to "ALL metals are heavier than air - they drop to the ground like a ROCK". But then you observe "Oh not so - for a metal plated cannister on an airplane flies through the air without falling". However IF the point is to identify the property OF the metal - it is STILL true that it is heavier than air and will in fact drop like a rock if left on its own. It is still an accurate description of the cannister. And the fact that there ARE some cannisters that ARE outside the plane and DO drop - does not change the case that this is a property of ALL cannisters EVEN one's in airplanes. Their starting condition and their nature is that they are "heavier than air".

I do agree that their actions are a result of the fact that they are turning from God's Drawing AS WELL as their internal natural starting condition of being totally depraved at the start. You are correct in saying that hardening is taking place in Romans 1.

In the case of Romans 1 where we see a combination of depravity, drawing and hardening - the resulting actions certainly include hardening.

But in the Case of Romans 3 where we are talking about ALL mankind saint and sinner apart from the drawing process of God - it is the internal, inherent starting condition that is being identified it CAN NOT be the Romans 1 case of declaring that the Apostles and saints are all "NOT seeking God" in the combined environment of ALL forces in play (as we see in Romans 1).

Your conclusion below represents the differences

How can you "isolate total depravity" from the text. It seems much HARDER to isolate total depravity from Romans 3 - than to isolate the saints from "ALL flesh" or from "ALL" or from "THERE IS NOT ONE who seeks after God".

The slavery to sin, is like saying "this cannister falls like a rock. Now if we CHOOSE to place it on the plane - it gains altitude". The properties of the cannister remain "the same". But the combined "result" is different based on the choice that is made.

They are "BEING drawn" and are "choosing to remain away" but "away" is "slavery to sin" because that is the constant state of their sinful nature - by not choosing to yield to the drawing of God - they are not "on the plane".

But even if they DO choose the drawing - the sinful nature REMAINS - the war of Romans 7 takes place. Imagine that Romans 7 "SIN IN ME" that is waring with Paul - WITHOUT Paul yielding to the DRAWING - it would enslave him.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey, can't you Arminians get your act together and make up your minds what you believe?

Just kidding.

 

I agree with you there. But not because it is inherit in man's "ability" but rather - because the seeking of God includes the "DRAWING of ALL mankind" John 12:32 - and that drawing enables all to choose life. So although the internal "natural" response is "not to seek after God" - the "Drawing of God" enables man to choose. God places internal (supernatural) warfare in man - against sin-Satan-evil (I will put hatred between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent). But that is not the natural element of the sinful nature. It is the supernatural element that God places in the heart of man.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Brother Bill, Still at it and Still WRONG!!!

rufus &lt

 

Wow rufus. You make such compelling and relevant arguments I just don't know how I could ever keep up.

</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks, Bro. Bill. It's easy for me!

rufus 0)

 

Debunk this, good brother:

Proved By Scripture.

The decisiveness of men's disposition by nature is also asserted in Scripture in the strongest possible terms. All men are the “servants of sin,” (John 8:34; Rom. 6:20; 2 Pet. 2:19). They are “sold under sin” (Rom. 7:14). They are “in the bond of iniquity” (Acts 8:23). They are “dead in sins” (Eph 2:1). They are “blind”; yea, “blindness” itself (Eph. 4:18). Their “hearts are stony” (Ezek. 36:26). They are “impotent” for evangelical good (2 Cor. 3:5); (John 15:5; Rom. 5:6; Matt. 7:18; 12:34; John 6:44). “The carnal mind is enmity, and cannot be subject to the law of God” (Rom. 8:7). Surely these are enough to prove against all ingenious Arminian glosses, that our view of man’s disposition is true. But if man’s free agency is misdirected by such active principles as these, original, uniform, absolutely decisive, it is folly to suppose that the mighty revolution to holiness can originate in that free agency; it must originate without, in almighty grace.

rufus

 

Hey, let me tell you a secret. Pure Arminianism agrees with all of this. Bet you didn't know that, huh?

The similarity between Calvinism and Arminianism is that both agree that man is "as bad as he can possibly be." We agree that although man can do "good deeds," they are for "wrong reasons." Man is utter and completely depraved.

 

God’s Hardening What?

When it is said that God hardens the non–elect, it is not, and cannot be intended, that He exerts positive influence upon them to make them worse. Can God be the author of sin. See especially James. 1:13 God is only the negative cause of hardening—the positive depravation comes only from the sinner’s own voluntary feelings and acts. And the mode in which God gives place to, or permits this self–inflicted work, is by righteously withholding His restraining word and Spirit; and second, by surrounding the sinner (through His permissive providence) with such occasions and opportunities as the guilty man’s perverse heart will voluntarily abuse to increase his guilt and obduracy. Even when God’s decree and providence concerning sins are thus explained, our opponents cavil at the facts. They say that the rule of holiness enjoined on us is, not only to do no sin, but to prevent all the sin in others we righteously can. They say that the same rule obliges God. They say we represent Him as like a man who, witnessing the perpetration of a crime, and having both the right and power to prevent it, stands idly by: and they refer us to such Scriptures as Prov. 24:11, 12. And when we remind them, that God permissively ordains those sins, not for the sake of their evil, but for the sake of the excellent and holy ends He will bring out, they retort, that we represent Him as “doing evil that good may come.” These objections derive all their plausibility from forgetting that we are creatures and bondsmen of God, while He is supreme judge. The judicial retribution of sin is not our function: He claims it as His own. Rom. 12:19.

Perhaps "hardening" and "total depravity" are different terms with distinctive meanings, especially as modified and defined by the Holy Spirit in Scripture.

rufus