Calvinists: How is God NOT a sinner?

But the scriptures show men doing acts that God himself said never entered his mind or heart.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

The Jews were sacrificing their children to Molech and Baal, which God said he never commanded (decreed), or did it come into his heart or mind.

So, the scriptures teach that man can have his own independent thoughts and actions that God never decreed.

 

God cannot be a sinner even if He causes such. There is nothing sinful in God. To start with the presupposition that he could be means that he could be. If you begin with the fact of His utter holiness, nothing can impugn this.

 

You cannot both deny free will and say that God is the cause of all things and then say he is not responsible for sin. Even Calvinists have said this.

Samuel Hopkins was known as a "consistent Calvinist" and he is consistent. If God has decreed all things that come to pass, then it is inescapeable that God is the root cause of all sin.

You may disagree with this, but to believe any other way is illogical. Calvinists try to dance around this and deny this, but it is impossible.

On the other hand, if man has a free will, then God is not responsible for his sin.

Let me give you an example. We all own cars that can drive well over the posted speed limit, but that does not cause us to drive over the limit. We see speed limit signs all along the highway because man understands that men will drive as fast as they possibly can, but knowing this does not cause a man to drive over the limit, otherwise it would be unjust to punish and fine someone who speeds.

But if man does not have a free will, and God causes man to drive over the speed limit, then God would be responsible.

These are the only two options you have.

 

This would make you more of an evil monster than the person you caused to think the evil thought. I don't for one instance believe a good God, which is what God is would do such a thing. That is why Calvinism is such a misguided doctrine!

 

The Assyrians were known for their cruelty. Yet it was these evil people that God chose to bring against His people.

Isa 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger! And the staff in their hand is My fury.

Do you think the Assyrians raped and murdered any of the Israelites? Did God not know this is what they would do when He brought them against Israel? Was what the Assyrians did evil and sinful? What it not caused by God? Was God an "evil monster"?

Was God the author of their sin? NO! The Assyrians did just what they willed to do. Did they do the will of God? Yes!


Consistent Armininenism is Open Theism. Are all you Open Theists?

 

Was the crucifixion of Jesus an act of sin? Did God decree the crucifixion?

http://books.google.com/books?id=4pRhAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA98&lpg=RA1-PA98&dq=Dr.+Samuel+Hopkins+%22God+does+superintend+and+direct+with+regard+to+every+instance+of+sin.+He+orders+how+much+sin+there+shall+be,+and+effectually+restrains+and+prevents+all+that+which+he+would+not+have+take+place.+Men+are,+with+respect+to+this,+absolutely+under+his+direction+and+control.%22&source=bl&ots=QgW8CpSINB&sig=eXBmYw1GAK2oGOonmPW0Q_CCCR4&hl=en&ei=UemcS93PNoOCNLuwzeYN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

Correct. The Assyrians exercised free will, and God used their evil actions to discipline Israel. I do not believe God caused the Assyrians to do what they did, He just used it for His purposes.

I believe that in the Garden of Eden God gave man a choice, live by His decrees or run things ourselves. Since man chose to live without God's help, I believe God honored this. He, however uses our evil choices to accomplish His will. God doesn't cause us to do evil, He just allows us to live without His input in this sinful world. I also believe God will save all who come to Him for salvation through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I know how I would have answered, but I don't know how Heavensdad would answer. Plus, you could get 10 different ways of answering this question with 10 different "Calvinists."

So, if John originated a thought then you believe men have the ability to think "ex-nihilo." How can that be? Was John Couey free not to think that thought? In other words, could he have done otherwise?

I asked, "Do you believe God arranged the circumstances of child molester, John Couey, in such a way so that he would certainly think of kidnapping, raping and burying little Jessica alive in a plastic bag?"

And the implication from your answer is that you would say, "YES, God did arrange the circumstances of child molester, John Couey, in such a way so that he would certainly think of kidnapping, raping and burying little Jessica alive in a plastic bag." But then you conclude your answer by saying, "God only need remove His grace and man will do the desires of his heart."

Which is it? Did God simply "remove His grace" letting JCouey follow his own FREE CHOICE and his OWN ORIGINAL IDEAS, or were the circumstances arranged in such a way that God determined J Couey to think these thoughts and do these acts?

 

It's good to know all non-Cal's are in agreement.

His thoughts flow from his fallen condition.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?

Was he able to not do that act? Excellent question that gets to the meat of the subject. I would say there were many possible actions this man could have taken but I believe God used his evil intentions and directed them in the way He wished that accomplished what He wanted accomplished. I base that on our examples found in the Bible(Pharoah, Assyrians, crucifixion etc....).

Could God have stopped him? Why didn't He? If He could and didn't what is the difference? You still have a raped and murdered little girl. At least in my view there is purpose in it, it seems in your view God says "oh well, I didn't want it to happen but its out of my control".

So, did God know it was going to happen and allow it anyway?

I would have to say yes, in the same way he arranged the rape and murder of the Israelites at the hand of the Assyrians. What is worse, the rape and murder of 1 girl or the rape and murder of thousands? We seem to be disturbed that God would arrange the death of one but it never bothers us to think of God arranging the death of millions.

Both. Why must it be an either or? By removing grace or hardening the heart God accomplishes His will. What would happen if starting today God removed His restraining of evil in the world? I think you would have 1000's of examples of the one youe cited above.

Again both. I don't see the problem. Do you not believe God prevents evil from happening? Again, OT passages tell us otherwise.

 

Never claimed we were. You were the one accusing me of not knowing the answers to the questions from a Calvinistic perspective as if they would all be equal, which clearly is not the case. I accept your apology

So, that was a long way of answering, "No, he could not have done otherwise?" Right or wrong? Just making sure I'm understanding you before moving on.

But in the example of Pharaoh (to just pick one), God had a purpose of redemption to accomplish through blinding Pharaoh. This was a unique sovereign intervention of God to accomplish a specific purpose in the history of redemption. The significance of this intervention would be nullified if God predetermined every choice in such a manner, wouldn't it?

What do you suppose was God's purpose in John Couey's brutally raping and murdering a little girl? We know God's purpose in blinding Pharaoh...a nobel purpose indeed. But, should we assume from these special interventions of God throughout human history that God has causally determined every sinful act and thought of man? I think not.

Again, as I answer Heavensdad above, this is a red herring because it avoids the subject at hand by shifting to another point of contention. I have always acknowledged that God allows sinful actions, that is nothing new.

What is the difference? The same as the distinction in the scenarios below:

1. A dad is told his son is going to sneak out of this house and go to a party to get drunk. The father decides to let him go and suffer the consequences.

2. A dad gives his son the idea to sneak out and makes it so that he could not do otherwise so that he will suffer the consequences.

I don't see how you can't distinguish between God simply permitting a man to "FREELY" sin (able to do otherwise), and God arranging the circumstances in such a way that He determined a man to think sinful thoughts and do sinful acts (so that he could not have done otherwise).

How can that distinction be any more clear?

 

Grasshopper asked:

That is a very good question, but I think I can answer it and show scripture to support my view.

Did God decree that Jesus would die for our sins on the cross? Yes.

Did God decree that men would sin in killing Jesus? No.

First, we know for certain that God did not cause the Jews to crucify Jesus because the scriptures say God never tempts any man to do evil.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

This verse alone shows that God is never the cause of evil. But what Calvinists cannot accept is that God has foreknowledge. He knows how men will act before they do so, and God can use this knowledge to bring about his will.

For instance, when Jesus's brothers went up to Jerusalem for the feast, Jesus remained behind. Why? Because he knew the Jews sought to kill him. But Jesus had to enter Jerusalem as king on a certain appointed day. If he would have went up early, they would have killed him before the appointed day.

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.
2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.
3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

So we see here that Jesus knew the Jews sought to kill him. Therefore if he went up early he would have been killed before the exact appointed day shown in many prophesies that he would enter Jerusalem as king (Palm Sunday).

Did God cause these Jews to hate Jesus and want to kill him? No. But did God know their hearts that they would kill him? Yes. Did God use this knowledge to fulfill prophesy? Yes.

If you Calvinists could ever comprehend foreknowledge as is clearly shown in scripture numerous times it would clear up much of your error. God knew before the foundation of the world who would believe on Jesus and who would not, and elected those whom he saw would believe. This is why the scriptures say we elect according to the foreknowlegde of God the Father.

1 Pet 2:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The reason Calvinists will not accept the clear teachings of God's foreknowledge is because your doctrine would collapse.

 

Good post Winman. I would just add that the uniqueness of God's intervention in helping to bring about the crucifixion through blinding Israel (for example) only emphasizes the point that this is NOT the typical way God works within creation.

Think about it. If God "determined" every choice of man in the way Calvinists explain then what would be the uniqueness of God's intervention? In the Calvinistic system wasn't every man who was ever killed equally "determined" by God's sovereign intervention? So, what makes the death of His son unique and Divine?

The same question can be asked about the inspiration of scripture. If all words are equally "determined" to come about by God's sovereign control then what makes scripture unique? What makes it unique is because God DID intervene to effectually bring truth. This is what separates scripture from all other books written.

Also, this applies to apostolic authority. Paul was said to be effectually drawn by a blinding light on the road to damascus and was said to be set apart from birth, but what is unique about that? If Calvinism is true aren't we all effectually drawn because we were set apart from birth? Once again, Calvinists undermined the uniqueness of a divine act of God by presuming that he works that way with all who are saved. What sets the apostles apart from the rest of us is that they were individual chosen from Israel to carry out a divine purpose of bringing the gospel to the rest of the world. Calvinists fail to make that distinction and that leads them to their errors.

 

Skandelon,
This is clearly one of the toughest questions about God's sovereignty to understand. It is easy to say that God is in control of everything and everything is His will, but when you really break down to the little detail then it begins to be harder to accept. Example: Why did God allow me to fall on the way in to my house and scrape my knee? What was the purpose of that? Then: Does everything really have a purpose?
Trying to understand how God actually controls good events is tough to grasp, but to understand how He is in control of evil events working them according to His good purpose is nearly impossible because God is Holy and has no part of sin or temptation as has been quoted from James. Ive struggled with this for some time, but the truth is that I really don't know exactly how He does it, but we know He does and that is a great relief (not that that is the key reason to accept it). In fact I think it is vital to His sovereignty, Providence, and His Will. I feel that trying to explain the "hows" is where we all stumble. This is true for many aspects of getting to know/understand God. I do in fact think the context of all of Scripture points to an absolute purposeful and sovereign God in control of every detail from the least to the greatest.

My questions for you are,

Is God's Will or predetermined plan merely Him working around all evil in the world or is He actually working with all of these events? (I have your view of pre-knowing peoples choices in mind). Just briefly explain your view

Is there a purpose to everything or is their chance in some events? What makes an event purposeful whether small, me stubbing my tow, or large, Jesus atonement?

 

I don't pretend to have the answer to the question before us. But we do have to come to grips with Acts 2:23:

I can understand the foreknowledge part, but I can't ignore the determinate counsel part. What I do see in this passage is God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in the same act.

 

Yes, this is a difficult thing to understand. The scriptures are clear that all things are under the control of our Father.

Matt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

That God allows evil is obvious, but the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin, and so therefore could not have tempted the Jews to kill Jesus. I do believe in his foreknowledge he did know the Jews would crucify Jesus if given the opportunity and used this knowledge to bring about his will that Christ die for us on the cross.

I have often wondered if it is like a great game of chess. We are allowed to make whichever move we wish. God can see all possible options we will make beforehand, and regardless of what we choose, he is ultimately going to say "checkmate!".

And Tom, as you yourself showed by quoting Acts 2:23, foreknowledge is shown to be used in God bringing about what he determines.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Calvinists deny that God elects those whom he saw would believe through his foreknowledge, but the scriptures show God brings about his will through foreknowledge as shown.

 

Well, that depends on how you define "God's will." Clearly scripture indicates it wasn't God's DESIRE for man to sin, but was it an aspect of his "WILL." God clearly ALLOWS or PERMITS that which is not his DESIRE or PLEASURE. To use your example, He didn't find pleasure in your stumbling and hurting yourself, but He allowed it.

That is MUCH different from His causing it so that it could have not be otherwise. God does NOT cause sin. He may permit it, but He is not the CAUSE.

I don't see a difference in "working around" and "working with" all these events. I think it is both of these. Notice that even in your options you didn't include "God working by causing these events" because you are not comfortable making God culpable for evil. God works with and through and around the evil in this world to bring about his plan and purposes. Sometimes he even blinds people from seeing the truth so that they will continue to do what they want to do in order to accomplish a purpose through them (Pharaoh/Israel etc). Like a police man who hides from a speeder so that the speeder will keep doing what he wants to do, so too God might hide his truth so that sinners will keep sinning. Why? To accomplish a greater purpose of redemption. This doesn't make God culpable anymore so than the Police officer would be for hiding his presence from drivers.

The word "chance" is just a word we use to explain things that are so complex we couldn't begin to fully understand it. Chance is another word for "mystery." For example, when you flip a coin there are so many factors influencing the outcome of how it lands...so many we can't know them or measure them in such a way that we could know what will happen, which is why we call that "chance." I just believe there are purposes of God (those things He will Sovereignly work to bring about regardless of what we do or what happens in the world), and their are our purposes, which don't always match up with His (SIN). God might use SIN to bring about his purpose but He never purposes sin, in my view.

 

But the scriptures say chance exists.

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

Jesus said chance exists, that's good enough for me.

Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

Im speaking directly to His decretive will that governs every single event from the drip of water to the shift in tides in the ocean. I agree that God does not desire sin and in fact despises it in full fury, although He decrees it for a greater purpose. He hated the sin of the Jews in that they hated His Son, but He decreed for every single small event to happen in order to fulfill the Scirptures to perfection. This in turn pleased Him to bruise His Son and glorified Him in an unimaginable way. I think there is a link between God's decrees of sin to a greater cause to recieve glory. I think it jeopardizes sovereignty and providence to say God just sits back and watches or to say God worked with what we gave Him when He was predetermining all events of time. I believe those times when I stumble have a purpose and God ordained those events. Now the way I react to them is inclined to sin, although God's grace can enable me to glorify God and not curse Him in those events. Without God's grace I am going to ask "Why, God, did you allow that to happen?" The tough part arises when I think about how God sovereignly controlled my sin against Him for a greater purpose whatever it may be. I dont think we can say God secondarily causes sin for no purpose.

The word "Cause" seems to give off wrong impressions. I do think God "controls" all events including sin and disaster to bring about His secret will. I dont think God is passive other than we cant pin Him with sin or temptation of sin, yet, He somehow has total control over every single sin to a degree that when people sin, they sin perfectly according to what God has ordained them to do. Judas is a primary example. I cannot wrap my mind around how God can use evil and yet not be apart of it in any way. I do know that He doesnt merely look at it and work around it. Its like trying to understand the trinity if you will, it doesnt make logical sense even though thats what we demand.

Now lets examine what it does when we believe God doesnt have total control over evil in the sense that He brings it about secondarily to achieve a greater purpose:

1. We not only mourn to know that God has no part of sin, hates sin, and that it destroys, but we then begin to see that God had total control over it in that He brought it to us for a perfect purpose and we may trust His wisdom and will that cannot be thwarted rather than try to figure out how God worked with what He had been given by evil to work with.

2. This also means a lot in great tragedies of nature and diseases. They didnt just come about apart from God's causes. God has control over nature and the universe yet He wills for terrible things and nationwide diseases, storms, tornados, hurricanes all for a greater purpose we cannot understand. If you try to explain natural disasters without God being in control you run into an issue. We can look at it wrongly and blame God or we can have faith and understand that even though He causes these things He has a good purpose in them.

By chance I meant, by accident or no purpose. Chance to me means that God had no part or control over the event. Say a tree fell and crushed a 4 year old little boy. I could fall on the open theist perspective and be comforted by saying, "God, I know this took you by surprise and we cry together knowing that you dont have control or knowledge of this." OR I can realize that God did it, not in a evil way, but for a good purpose and I can be comforted to know God has total control over the event. That is truly comforting to know that when my 4 year old got hit by a car God is doing something. You can see this in a horrible way, like God is laughing and having a good time destroying ants or you can see a personal God doing a definite will and not question it. There is no simple way to explain to a mother that God had total control of her unsaved 15 yr old girls death, but to tell her to trust in God and understand His ways cannot be changed. Look at Job. He lost some children who were probably not saved. With all of that rambling my point is that there is nothing I do in my life that is outside of God's control. This does not take away from my responsibility but reveals to me and everyone else Who we are dealing with. We can't jump out of God's hand or run from Him so we might as well give up and accept who He is- God.