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Featured Calvinists, particularly one of you, prove that the following is untrue.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pinoybaptist, Oct 4, 2014.

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  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Wait a minute, do you seriously think brain damaged people....or children who die in infantsy.......and children who are aborted are all going to hell because they did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel? Next you will be saying that without baptism you are unsaved. Another way of looking at this Y is to ask just who really saves.....I hope you are going to say Jesus.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pinoybaptist

    God is in control of it.

    God uses means, gospel preaching also.

    So then...if what you say is true why did God send Philip to the eunuch?

    Why not just send the Spirit to go to the Eunuch?

    26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

    27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

    28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

    29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

    31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

    33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

    34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

    35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

    36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

    37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

    39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK
    Do you ever get embarrassed by your posts?
    These baseless accusations have nothing to do with the op.:laugh::laugh:

    Nonsense....try quoting what I actually post...not your imagination.

    That is what I said...:laugh:right here DHK-

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    --To which child of the devil does he give spiritual fruit to? Please explain? Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    --To which of these does he give spiritual gifts to?
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pinoybaptist

    You still don't get it, Icon.
    God sent Jonah to Nineveh at that point of history to preach repentance to the people of Nineveh.

    I quoted from Jonah to discuss how God uses means...I was clearly not speaking of repentance.....respond to what I asked...I will post it again-

    PYB

    none of you have responded to God's use of means in the book of Jonah.
    In fact you and others were saying God is not in control of a mosquito who bites someone.....

    let me refresh your memory..you said this;


    respond to these verses then;

    17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.


    And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah

    6 And the Lord God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief.

    7 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered


    8 And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live

    DO YOU SEE HOW GOD PREPARED EVERYTHING HERE?
    really?

    27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

    28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

    29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    hyper Calvinism= fatalism.....you seem to embrace it, I will distance myself from it.

    no...it is not correct
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    OK....so now I get it. These points of disagreement are related to discipleship and the scope of predestination, not on how God redeems His elect from their sins and secures them to eternal salvation, fatalistic hyper -Calvinistic commentary “ad hominem” is a little pathetic bit thrown in to diminish and attack the person.
     
    #87 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2014
  8. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Gosh, Icon.
    Look.
    God did not use means to make the Ninevites turn to Him, He had already prepared them for repentance.
    He had already worked in their hearts before they repented in dust and ashes.
    Jonah's arrival there and his preaching simply served as the catalyst, if you will, for their turning to Jonah's God.
    The parallel in the New Testament is Lydia in Acts.
    Her heart was previously opened (softened) by the Lord so that she attended or believed in the things that Paul spoke about. (Acts 16:14,e).
    There is the response, you just refuse to acknowledge it, look at it, and see it.

    You keep going out of context in these conversations, Icon.
    We are talking of means to bring the "lost" unto repentance, aren't we ?
    These Corinthians are already professed children of God, regenerates, who are acting as if they were children of hell.
    Paul was talking to them about the consequences of their sins here in this time world.
    In your desire to portray me and my people, the Primitive Baptists, as hyper-Calvinistic antinomians you need to go out of the discussion's context.
    Stay in context, man.

    how can it be hyper Calvinism. Wherever in my posts did I say that there is no need to preach the gospel ?
    We preach it in our churches.
    We preach it among ourselves (elders).
    We do not shy away from it.
    But we preach it for what it is: A gospel of a cross that is past, a Savior that is victorious, and of a Spirit that works in the regeneration of His own, INDEPENDENT OF ANY MEANS.
    We preach it as a way of life: trust in God, always in everything, for Him to come through for His people in the darkest of darkest nights, in the most vicious storms of life.
    We preach it as that of an empty tomb of a Redeemer scorned by sinful men, as proof that one day the redeemed's tomb will itself be empty.
    We preach it as the eternal blood shed in time for the eternal redemption of His own, and only they.

    That is hyper-Calvinism ? Then I gladly own it.

     
  9. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Probably, they were running.
    And no shooter, marksman or sharpshooter, can shoot at moving targets with himself moving.
    Oh, wait, yeah, Hollywood has them. :laugh:
     
  10. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    That's an unfair comparison, EWF. Any Baptist worth their salt will tell you that Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. Dunking someone in water contains no saving grace.

    From what I've gathered, it's within the Calvinist camp that people seem to be okay with babies and other innocents going to Hell, simply because God put a "DAMNED" sticker on them instead of an "ELECT" sticker when they rolled off the great spiritual conveyor belt. People with brain damage, or infants, like in your example, have either no chance to hear the gospel or no ability to understand it, therefore they cannot call on God and they cannot work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Do you really believe our loving God would put these people on Earth without granting them the ability to understand His word or heed His call, and then would condemn them to Hell? What kind of a God is that?
     
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Again, you have gone out of the context of what is being discussed.
    Stay in context, man.
    Stay focused.
    That is why I started this thread and moved our discussion here, so we can focus.

    The discussion is about God requiring repentance of all men, elect and unelect, if I am recalling correctly.

    Look at my reply:

    if you're talking about the unsaved gospelly, as in the above audience of Paul, yes, we agree. If you're talking about the unsaved who are not of the elect, we do not agree.
    First because they are unregenerate, and God will not order and hold accountable anyone to move whom He himself knows cannot move. Can the leopard change his spots ? remember that Scripture ?

    The Scripture you have posted is about accountability to God.
    I seem to remember telling you sometime somewhere that I have not absolved any man from being accountable to God.
    The non-elect will be judged according to their works, and their being found or not found to be in the Lamb's Book of Lifeat the Great White Throne.

    The gist of our discussion, to which you replied with the above Scripture, is WHETHER OR NOT GOD ORDERS/REQUIRES all men to repent.
    I say, no, only the elect who are already regenerate.

    Your scripture nowhere shows God ordering all men to repent.
    It tells of all men being aware that there is a God, who has shown Himself in creation.
    If at all, that Scripture shows that unless God Himself regenerates the unregenerate and dead in sin and trespasses, He will not see God in the beauty of creation around him.
    He is DEAD. Bury the dead in the Grand Canyon.
    Will he marvel at its grandeur and appreciate it ?
    No.
    He is dead.

    Please.
    don't just pluck out Scripture and quote it even if it is irrelevant to what is being discussed.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    PreachT: you will have to discuss that with the Calvinists....babies going to hell b/c they're not elect. EWF is not Calvinistic.
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    correct...I am avowedly non calvinistic.....just because of......ahhhh you know what, Pinoy makes a point. Redirect this question to a Calvinist.
     
  14. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    No, I know that, EWF...I was talking more about the baptism analogy. I probably let my emotions get the better of me in the moment. I've been talking to some people lately who actually think baptism is a means of salvation. Apologies for the confusion.
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    No sweat!:thumbs:
     
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Of course God did. It was through Jonah's preaching that the city was spared. That certainly qualifies as a means to that end.
    The catalyst is the means. There is no way to get around it.
    Yes, means which the Lord has instituted for the furtherance of His Kingdom --gospel preaching is a major means.

    You are going against common sense here. The preaching of the gospel is a/the means of bringing one to a saving knowledge of Christ.
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Acts 17:30 is perfectly clear that God "now commands all people everywhere to repent." (NET)
    God has the perfect right to demand/command all people everywhere to repent. There is no reprieve, no loophole, no excuse to get anyone off the hook. Each and every person is accountable. There is no amnesty plan in effect for the non-elect.
    I would say that "commands" is even stronger than merely "ordering" all to repent.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    If you believe in election, how do you suppose that the reprobate (without Gods grace) can repent?
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    It still stands as God's command.
     
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