CALVINISTS, please answer this question.

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. - from the 1689 LBCF

Just got back from sunny Wales and I have found billions of posts.

Ok a few dozen!

God did.

God did.

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will
Seeing as God works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will then that is what He does. That statement is correct.

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;

Makes a change Wes, you have a point.

The people involved in this, 1689 LBCF, and others statements of faith that I have read all seem to compromise here. That it was God's decree but He is not the author seems to lose ground. Is He Sovereign? Then He is the first cause. No one had a chance to behave in any other way than the way God determined otherwise Christ was crucified before the creation on the off chance it might be needed.

Here is where I stand until someone comes up with any better idea; God, who is a bit vain, wanted to reveal His glory. He wants to strut His stuff! That is the end of creation. That is what creation was meant for. To see the revealing of God's glory.
Whatever comes to pass is to that end and only that end. There are things that come from that.

First, to witness His glory fully, we must see the whole character of God. To that end we need to see His mercy and His wrath and we could not see that if there had been no fall. He was the first cause of the fall.
The Author and Perfecter of our faith must also be the Author and Perfecter of sin. If He isn't then His Sovereignity is questioned.
This is what the old divines would not grasp, and I don't blame them. But in putting the onus on us or the fallen angels for authoring the fall falls short of the truth. This takes Sovereignity away from God.
The end justifies the means. The glory of God revealed. Wrath and mercy.
The things that come from that is that there are some who were created for a life of bliss and others a life of torment and unending misery so that God could reveal all aspects of Himself now, at the beginning.

To think He considers us as important is missing the point. If it does not tend to revealing His glory then you are wrong.
If what you believe shows God to be less than Sovereign then you are wrong.

johnp.

 

Calm down, Wes. Mr. Berrian asserted that Calvinists say that "God is the Author of all sin". I posted that excerpt from the 1689 LBCF which proves that he was incorrect in his assertion. That's why I was asking him to deal in facts. But, since you asked ...

God did.

God did.

God decreed that Lucifer would freely choose to rebel, and that Lucifer would be completely accountable for his rebellion.

I don't think so, but if you think it did I won't argue.

No.

Yes, God did.

OK, perhaps you would like to tell us what is FACT? Where were your Baptist forefathers wrong?

 

Hello whatever.

...that Lucifer would freely choose to rebel...
Cop out?

In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth. No ground given.

Then He created sin.

How about that Ray, Mr Berrian? Going up in the world? God is the Author of sin. And the perfecter of it.

johnp.

 

johnp,

You said,

Folks, this is where Calvinism ends with saying that God and Satan are in the same business, or on the same side. This view is antithetical to Christian truth, more especially to the purity of the attribute of God’s holiness and the truth of His righteousness.

The archangel and Adam were given a choice and they selected their destiny and they fell from His grace.

Sinners are confronted with a choice. Heaven or Hell; faith or unbelief; good or evil.

I take your two sentences above in your quote to be declarative sentences rather than two questions.

John, I must admit that you have a novel theory going there. I'm somewhat surprised that some have believed it to be the truth.

 

Hello Ray, or is it Mr Berrian these days?

I said.

You jumped on this like a bird of prey.

So I become the spokeman for Calvinism praise the Lord, such heights!
Don't you remember what He said to Joshua?

What? That God is Sovereign?

Where's this choice Satan was given? Adding to scripture are you? Show me the choice!HaHa!

Are they? What of Satan and his lot then? Forget them quick enough don't you?

I see no question marks in my statement. I said this is where I stand what more do you want? It's called grasping the nettle and grasp it I do. God is Sovereign.

Cheesy grin or not, only I said that not Mr Calvin or Mr Calvin's lot as far as I know.
I must admit that you have a novel theory going there There you go again appealing to my human nature.
I put my thoughts up here to be shot down. I don't mind being shot down. I fear no evil but rejoice with the truth. Where did sin come from if it was not from the Sovereign God? I'm simple. Keep it simple. If God is Sovereign then He is Soveriegn and all things have their origin in Him.

You on the other hand say that God is mopping up. Running after us. Pleading and wanting, altogether pathetic.

johnp. Happy New Year.

 

Hi Mr. johnp,

No, not at all.

Then He created sin.</font>[/QUOTE]Semantic trick. Sin "is" in the same sense that darkness "is", but neither sin nor darkness is a created thing like light or earth or stars or plants or people are.

How about that Ray, Mr Berrian? Going up in the world? God is the Author of sin. And the perfecter of it.

johnp.</font>[/QUOTE]I most vigorously disagree. I stand with our forefathers on this issue, and most Calvinists do as well.

 

Wes.

Atonement.
2 sometimes capitalized : a theological doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and man especially as effected by the saving and redeeming work of Jesus Christ

That is what atonement means. It does not mean that Jesus died for the sins of everybody but it means that the death of Christ made God friendly to those that the atonement was made for.
Where did you get the idea that Jesus died for the sins of everybody?
Why did He not make an atonement for the sins of the fallen angels?
If you predicate your erroneous beliefs on the fact that God loves all His creation then why not the angels?
Because they saw Him face to face, well so did others, Judas, what's so different about him?
What difference was there between Peter and Judas?
Judas and Thomas?
Judas and me?

The atonement is the difference.
We were atoned for and Judas was not. That is the only difference and for that we are called arrogant.

Since Jesus redeemed me I belong to another.
My Mother used to pawn her wedding ring to feed us. Once a month she would redeem her wedding ring. It belonged to her as long as she redeemed it. If she did not redeem it she lost it and it was sold to the highest bidder. Redeemed has a specific meaning which you fail to realise.

Jesus paid my debt.
I was a debtor. This also has a specific meaning. If someone paid a debtors debt the debtor was released from prison by law, he owed nothing, like me.

Like me you are under the obligation to use English properly and not to define it as you would like.

He was my scapegoat. He took the blame for me. For me. If He took the blame for everyone everyone would be blame free.

Jesus Christ is the Saviour not the enabler. He saves those He has been given. His sheep will never be lost because Jesus is our Shepherd and our Shepherd is a good Shepherd. Simple.

I am redeemed. Bought by the Lord. A sacrifice was presented on my behalf by the Lord Jesus Christ and I was forgiven my sins by this sacrifice. Not all are forgiven are they? Eli's house will not let you go.

johnp.

 

Greetings whatever.

I don't play with words. What you say is that I lie!

ISA 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
He is Sovereign.

You want to say that again? With respect brother an apology is expected.

What? That you stand with your forebears in admitting that God is not Sovereign? That is your boast?
Contend with me and prove me wrong. We need each other to stay in the way. If I have rushed ahead then correct me don't just say I'm wrong.

I had alraedy absolved you, why defend yourself against a charge no one can make; Cheesy grin or not, only I said that[,] not Mr Calvin or Mr Calvin's lot as far as I know.

johnp.

 

I think your question assumes too much.

Joseph Botwinick

 

By "semantic trick" I did not intend to say that your intent was to deceive, and so I apologize for being unclear.

ISA 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
He is Sovereign.

You want to say that again? With respect brother an apology is expected.</font>[/QUOTE]Again, it is a semantic trick to say that darkness is a created "thing". He "creates" darkness by withholding light, which is the created thing.

What? That you stand with your forebears in admitting that God is not Sovereign? That is your boast?
Contend with me and prove me wrong. We need each other to stay in the way. If I have rushed ahead then correct me don't just say I'm wrong.</font>[/QUOTE]God is absolutely sovereign. He is also Holy, Holy, Holy. No one can justly charge Him with evil.

 

whatever.

Then you say I charge Him with evil?

And you accuse me of semantics!
1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Where'd it come from then? Only darkness was created by Him, the light was there always!

That is not an apology but that's alright.

Do you stand in judgement of God? What if He created some just to show His wrath against, just so that He could show His wrath because He wanted to show us His wrath. Would you say that is evil? Be honest.
Where do you think I have charged Him with evil?

If He withholds the light then that is what some regard as evil. Ask the Arminians!

1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
In this case then He must create darkness? He creates disaster all for His glory.

Don't forget, if the darkness exists then it is created for a reason. The darkness is there as a type or shadow of the reality. It is real and it is a part of creation. It did not exist until He started to mess with things.

johnp.

 

Folks the truth is that God existed before heaven, God created all there is. That includes sin!

Now maybe God did not create sin, per say. Maybe he created the capability for sin to exist, Like he created man with the capability to have, that is, possess faith, without actually "giving" faith to man.

The fact is that sin exists in a creation made by 'the perfect eternal Holy God'. It exists because Omniscient, Omnipotent, God knew what he was doing...and He still does!

 

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."

Oops, now you've got to apologize.

How could God be the "Author of sin" without doing evil? Maybe you mean something different by "Author of evil" than I and our forefathers did.

 

Hello whatever.

Only darkness was created by Him, the light was there always!

1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Pull yourself together man the apology is heading this way.

First of all though you are a Calvinist yet you have behaved like the others. I gave you a verse and you tried to break that scripture with your own. If your scripture stands then we have a contradiction. God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. God said let there be light. What you must do is explain my mistake in using that verse and add your own to support your explanation.
The first darkness that is mentioned is upon the face of the deep. That is created darkness? And God said, "Let there be light." Where? Into the darkness that He had just created? My point?

This is more serious.

As men we might consider some things as evil but we are men. Are you saying you can judge whether God does wrong or not. He does as He pleases and answers to no man.

The death of Christ was predetermined by God to be a thing that would be accomplished by those that executed Him. They had no say in the matter did they?
Can you think of any good reason Satan had for entering into Judas to lead him to betray Jesus because I can't? Except, this man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 2:23.
So they were no worse than us were they but they had no control over the event. It was God's set purpose.
Use your judgement and not the words our forebears used, unless you agree with them of course, that was nobodies fault but God's. Was killing Jesus evil?
God wants to reveal His glory and everything is possible for such a great end because the end justifies the means.
So if I learn from scripture, which I do, that God has determined to send some to Hell just because He sends them to Hell then that is fine by me but I will not be mealy mouthed about it and say that is what their sins deserve, it is. I will not hide behind expressions like 'no one is predestined to Hell' because although it is true the fact that He has not chosen some means exactly that.
I'll not try to pretty it up. People are condemned for the actions of some other forebears of ours and cannot change themselves because God has decided they can't. He then determines all their actions, because He is Sovereign, and condemns them for doing what they could not help but do.
Be fair man, that stinks but not to me. I'm lost in wonder, love and awe.
As a man I can tell you that what He did to Pharoah was nothing short of shocking. Don't you agree, as a man? To raise a man up just to destroy him! To harden him so that even common sense could not prevail and so cause him less harm.
We must face the facts if we are Calvinists. It is no good hiding behind our forefathers because our forefathers made mistakes. Why should they have all the fun, why should we not make our own mistakes? But holding onto their hand as we go forward.

The 'so as not to be the Author of sin' is a cop out. They had their reasons but deny His Sovereignity.
Maybe we could do a thread on 'is God a nasty bit of work or not?' I claim Him as my Father, I know Him.
From man's perspective, a Calvinist theology, and with honesty we must approach the subject not with the attitude that we must protect Him from His own terrible publicity but proclaim what He says He is. The whole counsel of God is expected from us. Our Father is a consuming fire. He does as He pleases because the end is His glory. Praise Him.

johnp.

 

Nope. The light wasn't, until He spoke, and then it was. John used a figure of speech to describe God.

As men we might consider some things as evil but we are men. Are you saying you can judge whether God does wrong or not. He does as He pleases and answers to no man.

The death of Christ was predetermined by God to be a thing that would be accomplished by those that executed Him. They had no say in the matter did they?</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, they wanted Jesus dead and they killed Him. That was their say in the matter.

Yes, the Jews put Him to death by wicked hands..

You lost me in there. Yes, God has every right to create someone for the express purpose of opouring out His wrath on them. As you say, it is what we all deserve. I don't say that 'no one is predestined to Hell'. We agree on most of this. Yes, what He did to Pharoah was shocking, as a man, but of course it is His right to do as He pleases with His creation. Pharoah did exactly what he wanted, and got nothing that he didn't deserve.

The point is, our Calvinist forefathers believed all of this as well, and yet they denied that God was the "Author of sin". God doesn't need me to "protect" Him from anyone, and I have no interest in trying to do that. I am trying to be honest with all that the Bible says about Him.

How does 'so as not to be the Author of sin' deny His Sovereignity?

 

whatever.

I have no problem with federal headship. It is the federal headship of Adam that not only caused my downfall but enabled my salvation.
But it is a truth that I was not at fault in being conceived although I found myself at fault and at emnity with God. No choices were there for me, part of a lump that God broke in two. Born with a sinful mind I am incapable of good.

Pharoah got nothing that he didn't deserve.

Let's take him as an example. A man conceived in sin. He had no choice about the condition he was born in. God condemns us for that, a sin committed by another caused our condemnation. A sin committed by another affected in an almost ultimate way the history of man and the world.
So the man's heart was hard, as hard as any other man's. But God says to Moses that He will harden Pharoah's heart. Why? To ensure Pharoah made the wrong choice.
Logically the only reason to harden his heart further was to stop Pharoah making the right choice, from our point of view. That being so then God was the first cause in creating an evil, the rejection of the command of God to let the people go.
Rejecting a command of God is an evil and God caused that rejection in Pharoah.

If we go back to Adam some will say that he had an ability to decide for himself a course of action. This decision that he made would lead to the death of death before death was a reality to the human race. Yet it was God's set purpose to sacrifice His Son.
This being so, and if Adam had a choice to make, Adam could have behaved in no other way than he did, the choice made was by God when He chose us in Him and rejected the rest in eternity. That Adam did as he did was a direct result of him being created to be the instrument to bring about calvary.
The moment God said, "Let there be." He ensured that evil would be a product of His work. Produced by His creating so that His Son Jesus Christ could die on the cross. To His glorious glory.
Another point to look at is the fact that Adam lacked a vital ingredient in his makeup. Perseverance was withheld him and the fallen angels. It was not to the elect angels as they persevered as we Christians persevere.

But why did they deny it. I've searched for this statement, that God is not the Author of sin, but cannot find it. Show me where the scriptures say this, I don't mean word for word, an implication will do, I need this.
I am on my own and have no one to discuss things with except you lot here. I want to find a unity in belief, as far as that is possible, with my brothers and I need your opinions and beliefs so that I do not go rogue any more than I am already.

This is a protecting of God. Pharoah got nothing that he didn't deserve.
Pharoah was a puppet in God's hand, born for the kill, completely carried along by God, as I believe all men are, for the sole purpose of displaying God's glory and to complete the act God destroyed him. If Pharoah deserved death then we can say we deserve life? Pharoah was helpless in this. Born a sinner by God's will and incapbable of good according to God's will. Condemned by God for being like God created him.
That's what He wants us to know about Him. Awesome. Beyond control. A law unto Himself.
That is what Romans nine is on about. He does not beat about the burning bush there but claims that the lump is the same, torn in two with one lot going for the dump and the other lot going for glory. It has nothing to do with deserve but, "I will have mercy on who I have mercy on." Nothing to do with deserts but all to do with God's will and only God's will.
He made us sinners.
If a defence can be found that Adam had a choice, so that God is not stained by guilt, what of 'all' others? Not that I believe God is stained, He can do as He pleases and is unrestrained. All men are born dead, what had this to do with them, nothing? What sinful mind can behave in a way that will please God, none? He created me.

This is the conclusion Paul reached in Romans nine. "Why does God still blame us for who resists His will?"
It is there that I have put my trust in God. The unanswered question. Since the question is unanswered by God, but the opposite is true, we are told to shut up and put up with it, we should not try to answer the question ourselves. It is there that I have put my trust in God. The 'why does God still blame us' is the conclusion, we cannot go further than that.
Yes, the Jews put Him to death by wicked hands. But God ensured their hands were wicked. Why does God still blame them? He does is all that can be said.
The onus is put onto man, he is a snner and deserves what he gets, but the onus should be placed on God because everything is going according to His plan.

johnp.

 

Don't have time for a full response - hopefully later.

Of course we don't deserve life. Some of us get what we deserve (justice) and some of us get mercy, but God is never unjust with any of us.

One more thing ...

Onus? The burden of proof is on God? Maybe that's not what you meant. He is answerable to no one. Man is answerable to Him.

 

Ok whatever no rush.

Then why do we deserve our death?

I never said He was unjust.

Burden of proof is onus probandi. Onus may not be a very good word to use. What I meant was it is better to put the cause of our condition and the resulting consequences squarely on God whether we are talking about Christians or the others.
That not only is our righteousness due entirely to Him but so are our sins.
Preaching this message, a message that all men are under the direct control of God for good or bad, will elicit the correct response from those we talk to. Only this message will elicit the response Paul expects to hear, "Why does God still blame us for who resists His will."
You won't get that response from any other message.

Whatcha think?

johnp.

 

Preaching this message, a message that all men are under the direct control of God for good or bad, will elicit the correct response from those we talk to. Only this message will elicit the response Paul expects to hear, "Why does God still blame us for who resists His will."
You won't get that response from any other message.

Whatcha think?

johnp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That message johnp...or the message that God will include Gentiles in His plan which really ticked off the Jews. I am not saying I am right...but I have heard this interpretation. That Romans 9 is not about election of individuals, but about God including Gentiles in His Kingdom.

Anyway...we can debate about this til the cows come home if it is God's sovereign will that we do. But I have come to the conclusion that niether side is fully convincing. All I can do is trust God for my salvation and forget about the systematic theology and debating behind it. Besides, if God doesn't love most of mankind...why should I? Can we really be held to a higher standard than God? If so, then I want to be able to walk on water too.

 

hoosierdaddy,
All it takes is Faith, Jesus said so!