Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

Well you can 'believe' what you like but that does make it any more true. HOWEVER, I will state that this particular verse is very debated and debatable.

I agree that it wasn't till the Lord opened Lydias heart that she was 'able' to believe. Does God do this for all men everywhere? Yes. Will and do all men believe? No.

 

Now hold up a moment please. Let us look at this again.
We have God telling us to choose between two things (Life and death) and we have Him telling us to proclaim this same message, but then you leave the express declation of God "to choose, to believe, to ..." (you get the picture) and say "we can take it further..and say you 'can' trust Christ". My brother, it is not taking it furthur but simply believing God at what He says. Not only is the 'can' (at the moving of God in us) implied but expressly given. One can only take it beyond the context (or go furthur) if one assumes we can not when God tells us to.

I agree that grace came first and then faith. Umm.. in reference to that last part.. Faith is not given first or even given. What I mean by not given is that God implants a special type of faith inside us and thus we never had it nor could we come to it even with God's help. I do however believe that faith can be seen as a gift in that no man would have it if it were not for the working of God toward him. Thus it is a gift in that sense. - only helping you understand my view on this topic

But regardless of if God gave it to you, it was you who still had to believe that you might be saved. Thus you in some degree participate in your salvation. Otherwise God would save you without you needing to believe. Therefore according to Reformed view that our salvation (meaning not only the act but the process) is 100% God and nothing of or from man is wrong biblically. No question that the act of salvation is 100% God.

But you just did argue with it. :tongue3:
If it says it then believe it or at the very least study it out for yourself to find out more.
How can it be 'seeming' unless that is what it is saying and that you differing with it because you have a different position on it.
Do not just read one side of the view. Look first look at the context and words. Then look at other places in scripture where it is much the same or the same certain words used and get a feel for it yourself. THEN look at commentators from both sides and see if what they say first lines up with the context and the scriptures as whole. Sometimes we are to live with those tentions in scripture and sometimes the tension is really in us.

Now with respect to your verses I will give 'briefly' my thoughts on them and 'you' can choose what you wish to speak to.

 

The Lord does not open the hearts of all people everywhere! At which passage of Scripture have you discovered that idea?!He opens the hearts of certain ones -- the elect alone.When the Lord opens hearts they will believe -- there is no possibility of disbelief.

 

IOW - you wouldn't be saved if it were not for God. He saved you (thus 100%)
God is not obligated to save some because of belief. God chose to save us through faith. Thus He saves us because of His grace.

However, with respect to the percentages above - In the Reformed view there is no real Monergism because regardless of how it plays out. Man must believe in that he might be saved. Man, no matter how it is sliced and diced participates in his salvation. The only way to remove man from the salvation equation is to have God save man without faith - This is actaully Primitive Baptist view.

I know.

To this I do not disagree. I think I misunderstood one part though which appears to read that God saved us before time began? Or did you mean that God purposed to save us before time began.

I can agree with the last part.

Do not let your systematic theology dictate scriptrue. Scripture dictates our theology. This is important in letting the scripture speak for itself. Other scriptures are important in understanding as well but context is both Key and King in interpretation.

No I don't think it doesn't. Context refers to who is speaking, what is said, the time or culture it is being spoke to, and the purpose of it being given. Other scriptures can be used to clarify but not to dicate. Context can branch furthur outward to the book, the particular Testimant and then finally the whole of scripture. However in doing so it does not change from what the original intent of the author was meant when he penned it in conjunction with those surrounding passages.

IOW- the intent and meaning wont change as you entend context to encompass larger portions.

Yes, but unable to what? Not to do but to please God through living in obedience. This is why we should deal with what is there and try not to make argument or at worst a doctrine from silence that is not explicitly infered.

Yes, we can make applications through illistrations but we need to be careful not to allow them to much weight since again they are only assuming something not expressly stated.

You can look at the scripture on the whole only after you have examined what is in context before you. What the scriptures state on the whole should not contradict what is in the passages surrounding the verse. But in order to know if you are correct or not regarding the whole you must first look at the writting the verse is in to know what is being said and meant.

To probably best illistrate what I'm saying about context is a sermon from Spurgeon called "Salvation by Knowing the Truth" on 1 Tim 2:3-4.
Here is an excert:

With the above I am only pointing out that some remove context and import another view and then superimpose it upon the text. We are not to do this. Context dictates what is being said and gives meaning to that which is said.

 

Before I answer you, please give scripture that states the Lord only opens the hearts of the elect alone.

:wavey: tootles!

 

No fair, instead of doing just one as you wanted you hit them all :laugh:

I will section it off one at a time then :thumbs:

 

No doubt, for none can come unless called. But not all who are called come. Jesus Himself addresses this in the Wedding Feast parable. Many are called but few are chosen. And Paul stating in Rom 10 for those who hear God to not harden their hearts as the Jews did in the provocation.

.
And more and more can be given.

I'll do another on in this since they sort link together:

And just what does God reveal to those elect that He does not reveal the those who reject Him? I have found nothing different. The very fact He reveals those same things the unelect makes you have to ask - why would God do that if He never intends thus desires to save them?

Let me ask you this. What exactly does it mean to 'open the heart'?
It simply means that God is allowing them to hear and understand.
Now, understand what? Sin, righteousness (His righteousness), and His judgment to come. This is the exact same thing we find God doing in many of those scriptures I gave previoulsly gave in this thread. And many more besides.

Can anyone know any spiritual truth apart from God? No.
Then the question must be asked, why does God reveal the same things to bot the elect and none elect?

Notice what Jesus says to those who followed after Him across the sea in John 6 (those who would not believe).

Again, who are the 'you' (plural) here in John 6. Those whom Jesus made this statement about:

So not only is Sin, righteousness, and Judgment revealed (all of which encompass the knowledge of God) He is 'given' by God for both the elect and non-elect. Thus the message of salvation goes to all men and 1 Tim 2 regarding God desires all men to be saved and come the knowledge of truth stands true.

Gods calling/drawing is the revealation of truth and all those who He foreknew will undeniably come, but that does not negate the fact that all others are called as well but few are chosen.

 

I asked you to funish just one passage which says that the Lord opens the hearts of all people --'all' meaning each and every.So you don't get to say :"Before I answer you". I'm the one who asked you the initial question.Now if you can't affirm that any such text exists then please tell me : "Indeed Rippon,I was wrong to say that the Lord opens the hearts of all.Scripture will not bear that out." Or words to that effect will suffice.

 

There is WAY to much to go into on this one.
I would say with due regard to 'Regeneration' please check out these threads I started regarding that very subject. You will get a better understanding of where I am coming from and we can continue that aspect of this conversation there.
1. Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again
2. Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration

Secondly, be careful about 'assuming' dead is to be taken in the wooden literal meaning. Paul uses this word regarding spiritual things as a meaning of being seperated from God and so without true life- thus dead. Paul uses this word to not only describe the non-believer but ALSO the believer!

If dead is supposed to be take in the wooden literal form regarding the spiritual condition (and that meaning to be 'unable') then Paul is stating that believers are unable to sin! The meaning that you are using is something theologically superimposed upon the text or more specifically the word. Since it is context that establishes the words meaning and we know according scripture that spiritually we do not literally die then this must mean something other than the wooden literal.


Another thing. You are not justified prior to believing, nor does the holy Spirit indwell you prior to believing, nor are you alive (which is literally IN Christ) prior to believing. Notice the scriptures:

 

No need. Just read through the thread, I have posted a multitude of verses that speak specifically to that subject.
But here is one from Jesus:
I, If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself.

or 1 Tim 2:3-4 God desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

or Rom 1:18-32 where God reveals to all men Himself, sin, righteousness and judgment to come as decleared by Jesus via the Holy Spirit - who is to rebuke the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

Or Heb 3:15 where Paul state to those who 'hear' do not harden your hearts.

or 2 Thes 2:10-12 where it states that these men rejected the truth that could 'save them' and it was for that reason that God damned them. Rejecting the truth He revealed to them that could save them.

or on and on and on...

 

If we keep going "Z" I will take up 2 more pages on all your other one. Lets us stop for now - k?

 

You do go on and on;however,none of the verses you quoted say a word about the Lord opening the hearts of all people.If you think the passages you listed do that -- then you employ strange hermeneutics.Lydia's case is not be to universalized --the Bible gives no warrant for such a belief.

 

Of course I do, the truth is the truth. I believe Scripture gives sound support for what I am saying. The hermeneutics that are applied, regarding my positio, are quite simple really - no man can know any spiritual truth unless God reveals it to them and thus God opens the heart that the person might hear and understand. It is there and only there that man can accept or reject those truths God has revealed.

However I am still waiting for your verse that says the Lord only opens the hearts of His elect.

 

"John Knox did much, but he might perhaps have done more if he had had a little love . . . . Behold in Christ love consolidated! He was one mighty pillar of benevolence. As God is love, so Christ is love. Oh, ye Christians, be ye loving also. Let your love and your beneficence beam out on all men . . . . If there is one virtue which most commends Christians, it is that of kindness; it is to love the people of God, to love the church, to love the world, to love all. But how many have we in our churches of Crab-tree Christians, who have mixed such a vast amount of vinegar, and such a tremendous quantity of gall in their constitutions, that they can scarcely speak one good word . . . . Be ye not thus, my brethren. Imitate Christ in your loving spirits" ---Charles Spurgeon

 

No grasshopper.

In a public debate forum anyone may challenge any other whether the point of debate is supported by the challenger or not.

You have acknowledged and affirmed the standard answer but still have not personally answered my question: Is Jesus a universalist because He said He would draw all men to Himself if He were lifted up?


HankD

 

What in the world does this quote from Charles H.Spurgeon have to do with the present discussion?

 

No opening of the heart by God here if by "all men" you thing there is a universality to the passage.I take the drawing as it is developed in John six.

There is no reference to God opening all hearts here.

In Romans 1:18-32 there is no opening of the hearts of all people in evidence whatsoever.

Nope.There is no sign of God opening the heats of any here.

There certainly is no such indication that God is opening any hearts -- much less the hearts of all people here.

You can go on and on with your non-proof passages.But that will prove that you can't get blood from a turnip.You can not extract that which is not present.