Calvinists please help me as I am trying to understand.

Z,
I'm gonna get back here, but I got caught up on another thread .

It will most likely be tomorrow night.

PS.. you don't mind if I call you "Z" do you?

 

Ok, let us keep this in mind as we continue on. That God reveals what we do not know, such as sin, ect...

First, 'them' is all men everywhere whom God has revealed any spiritual truth.

Secondly, No man apart from God's revealing knows anything that is spiritual.
Thus to know any spiritual truth is to understand that which God has revealed.
Now, to know or understand something in and of itself is a neutral thing - neither good nor evil. However, typically when scripture uses the term understanding it is used in the positive aspect or in conjuction with an action toward that which is good. Those without understanding are those who DO know the truth but have refused it thus their understanding is used in a negitive aspect in conjuction with that is opposite.

In other words - either it refers to the knowledge of man apart from God (having no understanding) or it refers the positive action one did regarding the knowledge revealed by God.

However, to presume that a person has knowledge of spiritual things like the Godhead, sin, righteousness (spiritual), Judgment to come but that they do not understand it (grasp it's meaning) is to say that God has failed in His revelation of the truth. And since we know He did not but that He is God then His revealing is perfect regarding the giving of knowledge so that they are without excuse because they DO grasp His truth revealed. (Rom 1:18-32; 2 Thes 2:1-12; Prov 1:21-33; Eze 33 are some good starters)

See above verses.

Hmmm.. God only hardens after man has rejected Him. God hardened Pharoahs hearts after scripture says Pharoah hardened it first. Scripture even tells us exactly 'when' God hardens Pharoahs heart which was afterward. God hardened Israel as well but only after Israels rebellion. 2 Thes 2:10-12 as well as Rom 1tells us in no uncertain terms that God only gives them up or makes them believe the lie (hardening) is AFTER they have rejected His truths which He has revealed.

Also if God calls to people it is always seriously. However God does not 'make' us come and even those of the Reformed view agree. We come willingly but not everyone will always come when God calls. (Parable of the Marriage Feast another good example).

No one says that God is not powerful enough. However God has chosen to do things a certain way and so who am I to say "God if you don't do it this way then you aren't sovereign enough to be God".

Actaully, Israel has been set aside due to their unbelief. Set aside but not cast away. Rom 11

This statement you made is an assumption that this always happens:
"This revelation of truth brings forth, brokenness, fear, the real revelation of sin upon ones life, the great need of a savior, hunger for wanting to see and understand depths, and much more.... "
(aside from the 'real revelation of sin' because if God reveals sin to a person it is a 'real revelation of sin')

True, but were are not sons prior to the excersizing of faith. We were children of wrath not of God.

Understanding is merely the ability to grasp the concept of what is being given.
Knowing with regard to change is specifically based upon the action of faith which took 'understanding' from a neutral position of just knoweldge to the point of choosing to do something with it - believe or reject.

Then if that were the case we would have quite a bit of problem with Rom 1:18-32 as well as many other passages.

Easy! Scripture simply says it. Theology takes them and tries to reason them out in a system that makes sense to us. We do not and should not presume that without theology one can not understand scripture or know what it is saying. In this you have theology telling scripture what it is to be saying. When the fact is scripture should dictate what theology is teaching. Theology is NOT scripture nor is scripture derived from theology but the opposite.

I agree, so what do you say about those who are just as prayerful and studious in the Word as you and come to a slightly different conclusion?

I agree that predestination is something that can not be denied for the scripture plainly make the case for it. The question really shouldn't be about is there predestination or not but what does predestination mean. The only time it is used in scripture is speaking about God determining/predestinating believers to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

You are making the assumption that John had no choice in the matter. This is incorrect. John did have a choice and he chose to. That does not negate that God intended him to be such. Let us not forget about the responsibility of man.


Exodus 33:19 does not imply that God selects some and not others but says that His grace and mercy are His to dispense at His pleasure to whom He chooses. Not that He only gives to some for He gives Him mercy even upon the heathen and ungodly. IOW - Man does not earn it nor merits it thus he can not demand it of God.

Rom 9:11 - is election to purpose NOT salvation. Chapter in context is about being elected to be God's nation or people. That seed of promise is directly related to prophecy that Abraham will have a son and through him God would make Himself a people. But Ishmael was born first. So the 'seed' isn't of the flesh (through whom should rightly be Ishmael) but of promise - that is Issac. Thus the election here is about purpose not salvation. Paul speaks of election regarding salvation in Rom 11 and specifically refers to it as the "election of grace".

 

The implication of your statement above, I believe, extend to avenues that you wouldn't agree with. I think there is much more of scripture which speaks quite a bit to the contrary. Does God make people do evil things? Do you believe that God believes for you?

While I agree that without God nothing will be that is to be but let us not forget the responsibility of man.

I agree that grace is before faith, no question. However we will disagree about God giving people faith. Faith is either a verb (action) or it is a noun, and when used as a noun it refers to either 'the faith' relating to or meaning Christ Jesus or 'the faith' meaning those beliefs all believers hold. It is NOT spoken of as some nebulous aspect imparted to a person.

Let me state this. If you are meaning that God must given man some kind of special faith in order to use then I disagree.

If what you mean by 'give' is that without God revealing truth they would never know what is truth and thus would never use their faith in a saving way (thus in a sense God gave it to them) then I agree.

Please identify the scripture or scriptures you got this view from.

I don't disagree here. But again God is behind our believing but He is not the one who believes - we are.

I agree, but again be careful with the tossing of the word predestined around. Scritpurally it is not used specifically used when relating to salvation but the work of conforming us to Christ. The technical usage can be used to explian God choosing and that it must come to pass. Therefore be sure to differentiate that when talking to most people. It keeps them from misunderstanding you and keeps them from asking you give them a verse that says we are predetermined to salvation. Semantics I know but it can get rather nit-picky after a while.

No, not here necessarily. We are that all those whom God knew before hand (before creation) will not only be called but answer in a positive way. We just differ that God calls all men as Jesus declared (I, if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself; and - He is the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world). It is those who are not foreknown that reject His calling.

Says who? Are you saying that God in His infinate wisdom and knowledge could not know what all men everywhere would choose He if gave them the choice? God can know full well all things that He intends and what man will choose and predestine all things still. The determining is simply stating this is how it will be and nothing more.

Be careful trying to imaigine that you understand how and what God thinks. His thoughts are higher than yours or mine or both together. Just because you don't understand it does not mean it is crazy nor unimaginable except to our finite minds. The last sentence is simply not true. If God left us to ourselves to know Him and Jesus then I would agree. But God has not left us to ourselves and God Himself says to choose. The apostle Paul tells us that when we hear His voice do not harden our hearts. Why would Paul under the guidenance of the Holy Spirit write that if we had no choice?

True

Wrong. But mostly because I believe you have the wrong understanding of mans responsiblity. I would suggest - if I may humbly do so - to chech out what Spurgeon says on Mans Responsiblity.

True

True if you biological

Umm. Yes you can and some do. That is why God correction is called 'discipline' or chastening. We did something contrary to what God desired. Not what God knew would happen but what He desired you 'to do' in the first place.

That is what God says. God doesn't save us because we deserve it. He does it because He has chosen to save those who believe. Thus believing of itself will not stop you from going to hell but God's merciful promise of what He will do if we will believe is.

Again, not a true argument. We do have choices but the only one that really matters regarding life and death is to believe that which God has revealed or reject it. We have no choices except that God has given us. Thus I believe in a limited will.

Who says this. Scripture doesn't!

But scripture never makes any such declaration. Faith precedes regeneration according to scripture. Regeneration is a word that encompasses many different aspects of the same thing. Those aspects are being made righteous, sanctified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus alive in Christ. Yet ALL of these scripture states come about through the excercising of faith. Thus faith precedes regeneration scripturally. The only time you will ever see it the other way is due to a 'logical' argument by those of the Reformed view.

And yet I find in scripture saying just the opposite.

You just contradicted yourself
If there is no room for you to choose then you can not focus to do anything. You either are going to or you are not. You can not remain humble unless you 'choose' to do so. Thus man's responsiblity sneaks in again

You don't choose to be saved but to believe.

Because of the promises of God and part of those promises is to change me so that I will love Him and desire to cleave to Him. IOW - not to be seperated from Him.

Nope,not my answer. I chose because God not only gave it to me but allowed me to choose to believe Him.

I have studied Calvinism for nearly 7 years or so and almost took it up but do not through a great deal of prayer and study. For me there were to many inconsistenancies between the theology and the scriptures and the Lord led me away from it. That does not mean the Lord is not leading you toward it. The difference between your view and mine is not what is the immutable truths but merely the mechanics of how those truths operate and that only regarding soterology (salvation). So I would say let us take a break from this because it will definately start to get extremely lengthly here are you begin asking me more questions and I will answer them and vise versa. I don't mind possibly carrying this on through PM (private messages) because then I can take a little more time and ease and keep getting back to shorter aspects. However, if you want to know a little more about some of the non-cals views click on my name and then under my picture click on Threads I have started. They range from the calling, to faith, to regeneration and faith. I have had quite a bit fun and appreciate the discussion and commend you on your knowledge.

Hold fast that which you believe but do not hold on so hard that God has a hard time getting through to you.

 

ALL Scripture Is From The TNIV

Are you trying to say that the folks in Romans 1:18-32 knew of the Godhead(Trinity)?! How do you draw this conclusion?The Scripture says they knew God -- but this kind of sacred knowlege they were not privy to.

No.As I have told you before -- God first hardened Pharoah's heart way back in Exodus 4:21 -- long before Scripture says that Pharoah hardened his own heart

That's one thing I can agree with.Make sure you always remember that.

No.See 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14:But we ought always to thank God for you brothers and sisters loved by the Lord,because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief of the truth.He called you to this through our gospel,that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or go to 2 Timothy 1:9: who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of hos own purpose and grace.This grace was given us inn Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

Or meditate upon Ephesians 1:11-14 : In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,in order that we,who were the first to put our hope in Christ,might be for the praise of his glory.And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth,the gospel of your salvation.When you believed,you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of his glory.

Predestination is certainly toward salvation of the ones He elected in eternity past.

 

Predestination is toward salvation.To deny that is to deny Scripture.

You have that backwards.

Actually you said that about two years ago.

The Lord does not lead a believer away from His precious truths!

 

Did I make any mention about the 'Trinity'?
I was merely quoting the KJV on that part, but it is simply another way of sayin 'divine nature'.

We should let scripture tell us rather than you :thumbs:

So God had not yet done so, but 'will'.
The very context here is simply that in order for Moses to perform all those wonders God must harden Pharoahs heart. However it does NOT say that God hardened it first only that God will harden it so that Pharoah will not allow them to go in the midst of the wonders God will bring. Now WHEN does scritpure state God steps in specifically.

Please note that this is AFTER Pharoah has already to Moses he will not let God's people go back in chapters 5. He not only said no but increased their burdens in great magnitude.

I have always taught it.

You proved my point exactly. Predestination is never used in any of these but where it is used it speaks specifically about being conformed to His Son's image.

I was illistrating that to say the scripture say we are predestined to salvation is to set ones self up for a fall in trying to find the wording. THAT was my point. Thus differentiate between the scriptures saying it 'specifically' verses saying it in other forms.

 

The 'word' predestination or predestinate is never used to describe it as such and THAT was my point.

Opinions vary.

Yes, and it was back then that I stopped delving for what isn't there.
I know they believe and understand their arguments but I don't need to keep at them when I see to many issues with it.

I agree :thumbs:

 

The word "Godhead" = Trinity.That's pretty basic stuff.But for you to insist that those who have never heard the gospel of Christ in Romans 1:18-32 would know about the Godhead -- it is simply not supported by the Scriptures.

Again,the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is in Ex.4:21 wherein God does the hardening.

Predestination is toward salvation in the Scriptures.Election is toward salvation.Calling is toward salvation.Drawing is toward salvation.Many other cognate words are used in the Bible to denote God's purpose in bringing His own to Himself.

 

Your words in clarified form: If you mean that God must give people some kind of special faith in order to believe -- then I disagree.

God most certainly gives a special faith to believe -- nobody would believe otherwise.

AMEN! It's the same as destined,predestined,ordained or appointed for salvation as in Acts 13:48.

Here you are going against your own stated principles.

In addition,all people would not "choose"God if given a choice.No one would choose.You are not being biblical.

But you have done exactly that in the previous block of your words which I quoted.

No,we should not be logical.Those evil Reformed folks are too logical.But the non-Reformed are much better! They are illogical and proud of it.[Sarcastic remarks off now.]

 

You had said :'I have studied..."Did you mean :"I had studied?

 

To 'presume' Godhead means 'trinity' at all times is wrong specifically when dealing with a tranlation. I was 'quoting' a translation and I elaborated on what it means (divine nature) because you have trouble understanding. Yes, it IS in scripture. It might not be something you agree with but it is in scripture.
See these all use the phrase 'Godhead':

The others use divine nature or divinity. They mean the the same things when one understands that the useage of Godhead is not always used to mean Trinity.

No said it wasn't the first time it was spoken of. But God didn't do it then and scripture states this. It says He will do it not that He has done it. And scripture tells us 'exactly' when He does it too. It was after Pharoah had already told Moses No, I will not let your people go and then increased extrensively their burdens.

 

One can believe whatever they wish.

Nope

You mean I not being Rippon, but yes, I'm being biblical.
I do agree however that a man apart from the influence and grace of God will never choose God. That is why God by grace mercifully reveals truth to all men via the Holy Spirit and Christ. IOW - God works in the heart and life of all men through various means and ways but not all men will receive Him.

You seriously need a few leasons in comprehension. I did not say He does this nor that He does it this way. I asked:

This is not saying God does it this way specifically but was asking you that if God chose to do it this way would He not know the choices of all men at all times?

Logic that has no basis in scripture is not logic. Reformers even admit their understanding of regeneration preceding faith is not something that is specificly stated in scripture but that it is a 'logical' order presumed for their theological view.

 

No Prob Z. (a little funny for ya. I had a friend in HS that's name was Zack and we all called him "Z" or Z-man, funny how small the world is huh)

That is one way to look at it (irresistable).
No, it is not like rejecting 1 million dollars, but more like rejecting whether or not there actaully IS a million dollars. I can show you all the proof in the world that it is there and 'could' be yours but unless you are willing to accept what I say is truth then you will believe what you want to about it.

Yes I believe scripturally you are wrong in that aspect. God has not set us (believers) aside nor will He ever. He has set aside the people (nation) whom He foreknew for a time but will bring them back to Himself as Paul says.

A wise answer or they are both partially right. In any case the has lead many God fearing men into both aspects and we have been blessed due to His graciousness toward us by them.

I was simply saying that word 'predestined' is sort of a loaded theological word or better a word that tends to have some baggage that must be explained so others know what you mean. So if you were saying "scripture says we are predestined to salvation" is setting yourself up to be challenged, in that the word "predestined" is not used to specifically say 'to salvation'.

Beyond that I understand what you were saying and also I agree that God has predestined us to salvation . What I said seems to have brought some confusion but I was just giving you a heads up for future reference that some people will be nit-picky about what you type knowing full well you actually mean but like to try to twist what you say. For an example just look at Rippons responces to me.

John the Baptist was not saved before he was born. I know some Reformers and their work say this in great error and they are wrong. No man is saved apart from faith. Salvation is 'by faith' and no child can excersize faith and is why even in the OT when Israel was under judgment to wander the desert for 40 years those under the age of 21 (the age where by came into service and had a voice in community) were not condemned due to unbelief and is why they were allowed into the Promised land with Joshua.

The Spirit of the Lord was and is known in the OT to come upon people. But it did not remain. We see this repeatedly in the OT. The Spirit coming upon the unborn child was apparently a sign to Elizabeth that the child in her cousins womb was indeed the promised one and we see this played out in her responce to the baby's jump.

 

Understood. The clay and potter analogy used by some Cals is that we 'are' clay pots made specifically to do just what we do. So made for the purpose of life and others for the purpose of damnation.

Here we will disagree. Go here to read my thread on "A couple of odd statements about faith". It turned out quite interesting. I'm giving you this just to show you better what I am refering to when I talk about faith and the nature of it.

IF God gave us a special type of faith, then I would by necessity have to agree with you. But you made a statement about the 'purpose of God's will' so I will change that around just a bit, if I may, and ask - What is the purpose of God's will to reveal truth to those whom He has not chosen to salvation? What purpose is there to show them truth that He will not allow them to receive?

I can understand why, your above doesn't make sense to me either :laugh:
God was behind bringing Israel to the Promised Land but they did not go in due to unbelief. When we disobey God we did so with God leading us to do one thing and we rejected it. Are you saying that God was leading us and then (for some reason) decided to remove His hand? That is not limiting His power but the illistration of man responsibility. However it is assumption that we reject only if God isn't behind it.

When I say 'assumption' what I am meaning is there is no scriptural passages which make a particular claim. Not so much that you are making up an assumtion but that you resoluteness on some issues are more of a 'logical' reasoning based upon a theological view more so than scriptural evidence.

I do agree that what God intends to take place will but on the same coin it is in conjunction with man's willing obedience or rebellion. I did not say because of it but in conjunction with it.

I must ask this question to get your thoughts on the matter:
2 Thes 2:10-12 say that these people rejected the truth that they might be saved. And it was for this cause/reason (rejection of the truth) that they might be damned who believed not the truth. IOW- They were condemned because they did not believe the truth God revealed to them, and as says the scripture, "that they might be saved." or another way it is transalted "and so be saved".

No, that is not what I was saying. I said:

This is not the same as God willing everything according to who make positive decisions. What I said simply put is that those whom God foreknew are the same one who will believe. THEN I added that Gods calling is toward all men. Meaning that many are called but few are chosen.

Just a note - It would only be universalism if all were saved.

Though personally I do not agree with the above, my argument was simply - IF God did it this way who are we to argue? The point is we know very little about that event. The only thing we actaully know is that we are chosen by God and it was His decision alone. We can state that it appears a few passages of scripture give allusions or inferences that indicate 'faith' might have been involved in some way or measure but even then it is not exactly specific. (that is we can see this depending on how we see the verse or understand what the verse is saying).

On this we both agree.

Then it seems like you are not telling the full truth as you know it. Like you are trying to hide something from them that will keep them away if they knew it.
You are telling them they have a choice but in truth you don't believe they do.
If God wills them to be saved then no matter what you tell them they will.

Not really. At least I don't think so

While I agree that man can not do any righteous or salvic (saving) acts/work.
And scripture also states that we are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but 'by faith' so if there is no indwelling to after one excersizes faith then what are you meaning "in Spirit".
Scripture states that belief is 'counted' for righteousness. But again we only are righteous 'by faith'.

I agree.

If you mean as a believer, yes. But prior to the excercising of faith we are not in the Spirit for He is not in us, thus we are not in Christ.

On this I can agree as I have friends who illistrate this point. But, just to be argumentive , what do we then say about those are the same as above but are not Calvinists? Is it then Calvinism or their love for Christ and His love?

I agree if we are talking about a believer.

Well said.

No, that is exactly what I meant. I just take it one step further and say that God enables all men and not just some.

It is good when you can. Don't get used to it though because you will have some on here that will cause you to tie your ears behind your head to keep you from reaching into screan to choke them :laugh: