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Can a 5 Point Calvinist Be A Baptist Fundamentalist?

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by JD731, Oct 15, 2021.

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  1. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    I am a Baptist Fundamentalist and I say no.

    What do the Baptist Fundamentalists who post here say, and why?
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    It seems that the closest thing to a yes would be Westboro Baptist, which has a reputation for being unloving and intolerant of others. Here is their doctrinal statement on TULIP.

    TULIP - Doctrines of Grace - The 5 Points of Calvinism

    I, personally, see this particular church as one that has lost its first love.
     
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  3. Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin

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    I don't think someone who agrees with all 5 points could be a Fundamentalist. By Fundamentalist I mean IFB churches. Every Fundamental Baptist Church I've been a member at has some degree of focus on an individual, personal decision to accept Christ rather than Irresistible Grace and Unconditional Election, although they will agree on OSAS.

    My experience with IFB Churches is limited to Western NC and Eastern TN.
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Why?
     
  5. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Because the 1st fundamental doctrine of Calvinism is pre-creation election to salvation from the penalty of sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire. The 1st fundamental doctrine for Baptist fundamentalists is the cross of Jesus Christ and his resurrection.

    God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of Jesus Christ...........
     
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 1:4, ". . . as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ."
    Neither are unique to Calvinists or fundamentalist. Nor are those two tenets exclusive from each other.
    Do you deny God's absolute omniscience?
     
    #6 37818, Oct 15, 2021
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  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The first point that humans are radically corrupt. It is precisely because of our radical corruption that the cross of Christ is necessary.
    From this it is understood that salvation is entirely unmerited (it isn't in our control) and a work of God's grace.
    Only some will believe and that belief comes entirely from God.
    When God says "come forth" we come forth.
    Throughout our life we will face troubles. In this struggle, God will cause us to stand against the struggle and be victorious.

    Is that such an awful thing?

    In truth, these 5 points are the fundamentals of the faith. Therefore this is a fundamental church that believes these truths.
     
    #7 AustinC, Oct 15, 2021
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  8. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Depends on your definition of a fundamental
     
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  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Correct
    Are we talking about the fundamentals of grace or are we talking about the fundamentals of the legalists who add law to grace? (don't smoke, don't dance, don't drink, don't gamble, don't...)
     
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  10. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Do Fundamentalists believe in the Doctrines of Grace, Election, and Once Saved Always Saved?
     
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  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    To use a bit of historical shorthand, for the most part, the Fundamental Baptists are Particulars who follow the Andrew Fuller school of thought. So, we don't make a big thing of "The Doctrines of Grace". That's seen as a Southern Baptist kind of thing.
     
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  13. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Omniscience is not a fundamental to an IFB although all IFB's understand that God knows everything by one eternal act of knowing.. Pre-creation election is of necessity "the" fundamental doctrine of Calvinism and the cross of Jesus Christ and his resurrection is not as important to the sinner as the regeneration by the Holy Ghost and his gift of faith.

    Several things are at least as important as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in the salvation of a sinner, and I would argue they are more important in the Calvinist system because for most people on the earth at any given time, all of whom were not chosen of the Father to be saved, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is of no consequence. This makes the work of Christ in our redemption an "incidental" in the whole process. Does it not?

    What does the IFB's think?
     
  14. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Is individual pre-creation election to be saved from the penalty of sin, which is the second death in the lake of fire, a fundamental of the Christian faith, in your view?
     
  15. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    My op is concerning the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith. That is, the things one must embrace to have eternal life and be saved from the second death in the lake of fire. You said the T.U.L.I.P. are the fundamental doctrines one must believe.

    IFB's do not believe any of these points, yet they call themselves fundamentalists. No Calvinists that I know of refers to themselves as fundamentalists. With such a differing view of what a fundamentalists is, can a Calvinist be a fundamental Baptist if they do not agree on the fundamentals of the Christian faith?
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Really?
    IFBs don't believe humans are radically corrupt? The don’t believe that salvation is by unmerited favor of God? They don't believe that only some are saved while the others go to hell? They don't believe that God is all-powerful and humans cannot resist God? They don't believe that God gives believers the capacity to keep believing through pain and sorrow?
     
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  17. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Would you agree these 5 doctrines are the fundementals:
    Christianity[edit]
    Main article: Christian fundamentalism
    Christian fundamentalism has been defined by George Marsden as the demand for a strict adherence to certain theological doctrines, in reaction against Modernist theology.[12] The term was originally coined by its supporters to describe what they claimed were five specific classic theological beliefs of Christianity, and that developed into a Christian fundamentalist movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century.[13] Fundamentalism as a movement arose in the United States, starting among conservative Presbyterian theologians at Princeton Theological Seminary in the late 19th century. It soon spread to conservatives among the Baptists and other denominations around 1910 to 1920. The movement's purpose was to reaffirm key theological tenets and defend them against the challenges of liberal theology and higher criticism.[14]

    The concept of "fundamentalism" has roots in the Niagara Bible Conferences that were held annually between 1878 and 1897. During those conferences, the tenets considered fundamental to Christian belief were identified.

    "Fundamentalism" was prefigured by The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth, a collection of twelve pamphlets published between 1910 and 1915, by brothers Milton and Lyman Stewart. It is widely considered to be the foundation of modern Christian fundamentalism.

    In 1910, the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church identified what became known as the five fundamentals:[15]

    In 1920, the word "fundamentalist" was first used in print by Curtis Lee Laws, editor of "The Watchman Examiner," a Baptist newspaper.[16] Laws proposed that those Christians who were fighting for the fundamentals of the faith should be called "fundamentalists."[17]

    Theological conservatives who rallied around the five fundamentals came to be known as "fundamentalists". They rejected the existence of commonalities with theologically related religious traditions, such as the grouping of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism into one Abrahamic family of religions.[3] By contrast, while Evangelical groups (such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association) typically agree with the "fundamentals" as they are expressed in The Fundamentals, they are often willing to participate in events with religious groups which do not hold to the essential doctrines.[18]
     
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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, that was covered in post 17.
     
  19. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    IFB's believe there is corruption through Adam's seed, not because God in pre-creation determined that he would create mankind corrupt.
    IFB's believe some are saved and most go to hell but not because God in pre-creation arbitrarily determined their appearance on earth for the singular purpose of sending them to hell to somehow glorify himself.
    IFB's believe the human experience is characterized by resisting God and that resistance is the definition of sin. You are guilty or else you would not have consciousness of sin and therefore would not need a savior.
    IFB's do not believe in the perseverance of the saints, which requires self will, but the preservation of the saints, which means we are kept by the power of God.

    Your statements were all questions and I have answered them honestly and think I speak for the majority of IFB's. The Calvinist T.U.L.I.P. defines what IFB's do not believe the scriptures teach about God.
     
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  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I can only speak to the roots of the FBFI. It was born out of the Modernist controversy in the Northern Baptist Convention in the 1920s. The then FBF was a meeting of like-minded individuals before the annual meeting of the Convention. It continued inside the NBC until the late 40s when its membership split off into the Conservative Baptist Association. The FBF however still met under the CBA umbrella. Until that is the mid-1960s with the rise of Neo-Evangelicalism and the synchronistic Billy Graham Crusades.
    So, the answer to the question of the relationship of the FBFI to the Doctrines of Grace is found in its roots in the Andrew Fuller branch of the Particular Baptists which formed the Triennial Baptist Convention for Missions in the early 1800s.
     
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