Can a Baptist be Charismatic?

Dr. Bob, picking at you I would have to say that God always has His faithful remnant.

 

Hebrews 2 is all that is needed to silence those who think tongues are a valid gift today.

 

You still don't get it.....Thomas Grantham said 'all of the gifts' - and specifically mentions tongues. tongues occured during the Methodist revivals. Prophecies - well I wouldn't know where to begin - I have already given some examples of that. How can you continued to state that tongues and prophecy were non-existent until 1900? And by the way, I agree that most of what goes on today is "nonsense" - that is not in dispute. That is why I am not Pentecostal or Charistmatic. No, it wasn't the modern nonsense - it was the real thing.

 

I agree brother.

 

Here are a few more references I have put together....if anyone wants any others please just let me know. Thanks

Justin Martyr wrote: "For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time… Now it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God." Dialogue with Trypho, 88. Anyone familiar with Patrick’s Confession will note the place of direct guidance from God, including voices.

The references to George Wishart can be found in John Knox, History of the Reformation, and an ORIGINAL edition of The Scots Worthies, by John Howie. You can find some prophetic utterances by Knox in the latter also (1870 edition, page 57): “John Knox was an eminent wrestler with God in prayer. . . He was likewise warm and pathetic in his preaching, in which such prophetical expressions as dropped from him had the most remarkable accomplishment. As an instance of this, when he was confined in the castle of St. Andrews, he foretold both the manner of their surrender, and their deliverance from the French galleys. . .”

References to tongues, visions, and prophecies among the early Methodists can be found in the work, The Lives of Early Methodist Preachers. Vols. I., III., Fourth Edition, by Thomas Jackson, under the lives of John Nelson and Thomas Walsh (and these are the only two I have read so far). The visions of Nelson helped him in many difficult circumstances.

Cromwell – I would have to check the references. Huss’s prophesy concerning the coming reformer is well known. There are more cases from Huss which can be found in Suppressed Evidence, by Victorian Anglican scholar Thomas Boys. He writes: “While also in prison, Huss received by a dream an understanding that Pope John would make a sudden flight from Constance, writing ‘I dreamed beforehand the Pope’s escape.’” “Evasionem papae ante somniavi.” Epist. xxxiii, p. lxviii. Suppressed Evidence, p.78.
This is just a small sampling.

Finney:
There was no fire, and no light, in the room; nevertheless it appeared to me as if it were perfectly light. As I went in and shut the door after me, it seemed as if I met the Lord Jesus Christ face to face. It did not occur to me then, nor did it for some time afterward, that it was wholly a mental state. On the contrary it seemed to me that I saw Him as I would see any other man. He said nothing, but looked at me in such a manner as to break me right down at his feet. I have always since regarded this as a most remarkable state of mind; for it seemed to me a reality, that He stood before me, and I fell down at his feet and poured out my soul to Him. I wept aloud like a child, and made such confessions as I could with my choked utterance. It seemed to me that I bathed His feet with my tears; and yet I had no distinct impression that I touched Him, that I recollect.
I must have continued in this state for a good while; but my mind was too much absorbed with the interview to recollect anything that I said. But I know, as soon as my mind became calm enough to break off from the interview, I returned to the front office, and found that the fire that I had made of large wood was nearly burned out. But as I turned and was about to take a seat by the fire, I received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost. Without any expectation of it, without ever having the thought in my mind that there was any such thing for me, without any recollection that I had ever heard the thing mentioned by any person in the world, the Holy Spirit descended upon me in a manner that seemed to go through me, body and soul. I could feel the impression, like a wave of electricity, going through and through me. Indeed it seemed to come in waves and waves of liquid love, for I could not express it in any other way. It seemed like the very breath of God. I can recollect distinctly that it seemed to fan me, like immense wings.
No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart. These waves came over me, and over me, and over me, one after the other, until I recollect I cried out, "I shall die if these waves continue to pass over me." I said, "Lord, I cannot bear any more;" yet I had no fear of death." Charles G. Finney, Autobiography, chap.2

Spurgeon:
"Once when giving a sermon at Exeter Hall, Spurgeon suddenly stopped in the middle of his sermon and pointed to a young man saying, "Young man, those gloves you are wearing have not been paid for. You have stolen them from your employer." Afterwards, the young man confessed to Spurgeon he had stolen the gloves." From Autobiography Vol.25 Quoted from pp 89-91 of the book 'Surprised by the Voice of God' by Jack Deere

"I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it" Ibid

Moody
"When I got to the rooms of the Young Men's Christian Association, I found the meeting "on fire". The young men were speaking with tongues, prophesying. What on earth did it mean? Only that Moody had been addressing them that afternoon." R. Boyd, Trials and Triumphs of Faith (1875), p. 402

These references I have not personally checked, which is why I used the word ‘possible’ in reference to them.

Most of the quotes on the early Baptists I have used before and referenced – I think in the Bapticostal Question thread in General Baptist discussion.

 

Yes, Dean198, and I just found out that Billy Graham is in error on a lot of his doctrine.

Dr. Bob IS right. We DO believe in miracle healing. I have seen it many times in our church. My pastor is one. Our prayer list on Wednesday nights gets a lot of names because many are healed with prayer and sometimes the number is staggering. God does still answer prayers.

But, lumping in other gifts such as actual Prophecy and speaking in tongues is just flat not true.

Can you not see that Paul was correcting the church at Corinth due to their "misuse" of many things, not just tongues? Can you not see that Paul made it so restrictive that it was difficult to do properly, so using a political way to put a halt to it, he restricted it so that it was practically impossible.

Here is where the problem lies: When we start expecting gifts of the Spirit, then we start accepting other Pentecostal doctrines, such as Baptism of the Spirit after salvation as witnessed by speaking in tongues. Loss of eternal and secure salvation (salvation based on works, not grace). Emphasis on gifts and not on witnessing the gospel.

If you don't think this is true, take a look at Baptist churches that have taken this "gift" highway and you will find that they are usually caused by a bunch of Pentecostals who started going to the Baptist church and either converted other Baptists or simply took over. Or a pastor who came out of Pentecostalism.

My pastor was a Pentecostal from his early days. He recognized that he was wrong and he now claims no part of their incorrect doctrines. He is one of the best pastors I have ever had, too. Very conservative and very Biblical.

We just got through studying the gifts of the Spirit. It is too bad you could not have seen it and it becomes soooo clear once you realize that they are basing an entire doctrine of tongues on Paul's corrections to the Corithian church. The tongues in Acts were simply that everybody heard the speaking in their own language. This was a miracle, but how many times do you see a pastor preach to a crowd of people with a foreign language and they are understood....funny how that doesn't happen very much.

Also, as an investigator, I see and hear all kinds of strange things going on. As for the quotes above about a blind woman being healed...why isn't this happening everywhere all of the time? Why one or two cases that you used for examples.

Then on top of that we KNOW that every television evangelist I have ever seen doing healing are frauds.

This Bapticostal business is NOT Biblical and for those doing it, it is wrong to mix Pentecostalism with Baptist doctrine. For me, I will stick with the Bible.

Just think about something. If God is really speaking through a person with tongues and it is interpreted, then it should be written down and used as scripture because if God said it, it is just as much part of the canon as the Bible is. This results in modern day revelation, and problems like the Mormons. PERIOD.

This is wrong and I will stand up against it any time.

 

Philip, I'm desperately trying to follow your leaps of logic here without much success, so please help me out. First, belief in the charismata being for today does not lead to one being a fully-paid up, card-carrying Pentecostalist who believes in subsequence where Spirit baptism is concerned. It certainly doesn't for this charismatic Baptist and doesn't for many others I know. Nor do I understand how you think that 'tongues'+interpretation=revelations which must be written down as further Scripture . Nor do I understand how you can read Paul's regulation of 'tongues' in I Cor 14 as a prohibition...

Pray enlighten me, brother!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Just to ask for further clarification: it seems that those opposed to 'tongues' are not opposed to the ohter charismata eg: healing...just 'tongues'. Why is this? Is it because, for example, 'tongues' are a tad unsettling and weird, and people don't tend to feel comfortable?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt, let me stick to tongues right now.

I will ask you a couple of questions then we will go from there.

Why don't you start by explaining exactly what happens when you speak in tongues.

Where does the information come from to start with?

Is the language translated by a translator?

If so, what is being said, (in other words, give me some examples of things that you or others have said in tongues that have been translated.)

Maybe there is a misunderstanding of how you are using tongues, so if you will explain these to me, then we'll look at this one step at a time without taking such a leap of logic. deal?

 

We believe in healing, not so much as a gift to a person the way it was in the New Testament times. In New Testament days the apostles themselves were given the gift of healing.

Today, we do not believe that a "person" has a "gift" of healing. We pray and ask for God to heal someone, this in no way implies that we still have the gift of healing...it simply means that we believe that God will still answer prayers. But, Only if it is HIS will. It may not be God's will for someone to live and the disease may kill them, no matter how much we pray and believe. After all, everybody dies at sometime, otherwise we could keep them alive forever.

Now, speaking of tongues as used in Acts; where have we ever seen a group of people who have heard a preacher speaking in their own language, when that preacher is not speaking the same language? Does this happen today?

If "unknown" tongues is so common, then why would we not see the foreign tongue (described above) happening just as often?

Do you believe in modern day Prophets? After all prophecy was a gift. Can Christians predict the future and be 100% accurate at all times (the test required by the Bible of prophets)?

If so, what are they predicting? ...and who are they?

 

Alright, I'll bite

Many years ago, I was in a small Pentecostal church in Portsmouth when a guy went up the front and gave a long-ish discourse in 'tongues'. A couple of minutes later, another guy went up the front and said, in rather broken English, that he was Greek, had been raised Orthodox which had put him off Christianity for life, had been dragged to the service unwillingly and cynically by his neighbour, and had just been told, by the first speaker - in Greek - that he was in sin, in need of salvation and the Jesus loved him and wanted him to commit his life to Him; as a consequence he was convicted of his sin and gave his life to the Lord. Now, at the time I didn't know the amount of NT Greek I know now, so I can't say whether the original words were in Greek or whether the Greek guy just heard them as Greek.

Now, unfortunately, that is a rare - but not unique - example of what I consider to be Biblical 'tongues'. I do not consider most of what purports to be 'tongues' today to be the real Scriptural deal but gibberish, but I don't think it does a lot of harm either

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Dr Bob asked:

I agree. The two are mutually exclusive!

 

That is the problem with these "rare" incidents. They occur just like the miracles of Mary's face showing up on a cloth, or tears of blood streaming from a stutue of Mary in a church in Denmark.

Our pastor was healed of Leukemia after coming within hours of dying from it. It WAS a miracle. The entire church was praying for it. But, it was not related to a "gift" given to any church member. It was God's decision.

As far as "tongues" is concerned, Dr. Bob explained it best. The confusion style used by the Pentecostal groups is NOT Biblical. If Baptists are doing this, then they are by definition Pentecostal and NOT Baptist.

The "gifts" referred to by old pastors are not referring to confusion, mass hypnosis, pentecostal style of worship.

This is a latter day form of worship with its roots at the turn of the 20th century.

 

I have a question. Does the "Baptist Distinctive" above mean that God does not, cannot, or will not speak to person directly? The above "Baptist Distinctive" mentions the Bible as "sole authority for faith and practice". Can God talk to a person about things other than "faith and practice"? I find this discussion quite interesting.

 

Churchboy, we are dealing with two different things here.

Maybe I can try to put it into perspective for you with some examples:

Let us assume that a person comes into the church and announces that God told him last night that churches should dissolve and we should start accepting muslims and all faiths as going to heaven.

Okay, in this situation, we have someone CLAIMING to have heard a "latter day" message from God. First criteria, it is NOT scriptural, so therefore, it would be a "latter day" inspiration or message from God. Actually, it would be worthy of being written down as part of the Bible because it is a correction.

Conclusion: We throw it out.

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Now, let's take another:

Person comes into church and says God has called me to the ministry.

First criteria, this is NOT against scripture (unless that person is unqualified for other reasons).

Second criteria, we have to take that person's word for what he says. It would be foolish of us to accept what someone else says as coming from God. It may not have. It may be just his emotions or a feeling, or even a wrong spirit (remember Paul said to test the spirits).

Conclusion: We accept this person's word and give them the support they need to follow what in their heart is God's will as long as they remain scriptural.

============================================

I guess my point is that God will talk to us and God will point us towards open doors, but we are to be skeptical and there is nothing wrong with questioning whether or not it really came from God.

I have heard people say that God has told them the KJV is the only English Bible there is in the world.

First criteria kills it because it is not scriptural that only one translation is allowed in each language, especially one that is actually not quite in the same language that we speak today. (Although the scholars will argue that it is, in fact English, in real-world, it is not what we speak today.)

So, yes, God can speak to you, but when someone comes to you and says: "God told me this." Do not act upon it if it does not meet criteria listed above AND you pray about it yourself.

I know a church that has a problem right now. The pastor had them all pray for weeks on end on whether or not they should build a new building. 52% voted Yes, 48% voted no. Each side claim they prayed about it and that was their answer. Which one is right. They meet criteria one (obviously a new church building would not go against scripture). So, who is right? Half are receiving the correct message from God and the other half are receiving the wrong message.

The pastor, in his infinite wisdom, is continuing the building program. I would have to say, "Wait a minute." God isn't going to tell half the church one thing and the other half another thing, so let's go back to prayer and hold off on this until we get a better sign from God.

YES, God speaks to us. BUT, are we listening? ...and if we are, are we hearing him properly, or are we hearing what WE want to hear?

I hope that is not more confusing than it was meant to be.

 

To clarify this, Pentecostals believe that God tells them new things through speaking in tongues. I have a problem with ANYBODY telling me that God told them something. He may have, but how do I know. If GOd is making NEW announcements that are not Biblical, this becomes a latter day message, much like the Book of Mormon was a later day revelation given to their leader by the "so-called" angel Moroni.

Why do we even NEED new revelations from God if the canon is closed and the Bible contains God's revelation to us.

God can talk to us about daily issues and give us guidance, but it will NEVER, EVER be in conflict with the SCRIPTURES, which ARE the FINAL AUTHORITY of all things regarding God and His Son's sacrifice for us.

 

But what if the message being told to that person IS in line with Scripture? That's the only experience I've had of words of knowledge, prophecy etc within the charismatic movement over here

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt, maybe you can give us an example of a "revelation" that was new and lined up with scripture. Just so we're all on the same page here.

 

Er...let's start with Luther's revelation of 'sola fides'. That would be a classic example of what I mean

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I don't think i would call that revelation, that would be considered illumination. It is something clearly taught by scripture and not a new teaching. I am afraid we are defining revelation differently here.