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CAN A CHRISTIAN BE LEFT-WING?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ROBERTGUWAPO, Aug 12, 2004.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Those functions that only government can provide so that a country can exist. I think you would find some study of the writings of the Founding Fathers of this nation to be quite enlightening.

    Basically, government should protect 1)individual liberty and private property(the police function), national defense(otherwise you may not have a country), and administer justice(the court system).

    When a goverment goes beyond these functions, individual freedom suffers.

    Since the cost of taxes and regulations in these United States consumes over 50% of what is produced, if we restricted government to its proper functions, we could probably reduce that amount by 2/3's. Just think of what you, me, and everyone else could accomplish both personally and through charity if 2/3's of what government currently costs you and me and everyone else was available to us to direct, instead of paying for bureacracies that we have basically no control over.
     
  2. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Oh yeah, private charities have contributed so much throughout history :rolleyes: .

    It boils down to this. When private charities are the sole providers of assistance, the assistance will inevitably plummet--here's why. Under a system where taxes were only used for certain expenses, most likely charitable contributions would not gain anyone a significant tax deduction. Without this deduction, the incentive to give is vastly reduced. Let's face it; you only give when it benefits you. Christians might give hoping to gain heavenly rewards, others might give to have good "karma," but the majority of Americans would not give. You can argue that if we had more we'd give more, but do you honestly believe that? I don't. I think if a person who brought home 40,000 before starts bringing home 65,000, he'd be looking at a new car, home, or boat. Let's not deceive ourselves. Without a financial incentive to give, the only thing that would cause donations would be how good the gift made them feel, and I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people would feel better trading in that old Ford for a Lexus.
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    That's fine, StefanM. If you want to advocate forced "charity" I have no problem with you or anyone else doing so. But you are also advocating by inference, because of the nature of government, all of the bureaucracy and waste that goes along with forced "charity".

    Of course, the moral issue for Christians is whether or not it is moral to force a person to be charitable. I say that it is not moral to do so. Apparently, you and some others believe that it is moral to force a person to be charitable against their free will.

    Personally, I do not believe that the end justifies the means.
     
  4. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Ken
    "There are proper functions of government - maintaining law and order, national defense, and a court system for adjudicating legal issues. "
    "Those functions that only government can provide so that a country can exist."
    ''
    Says you. I have the constitution of a respectable sovereign nation linked to this thread that disagrees with you.
     
  5. Brett

    Brett New Member

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    Thanks KenH for your helpful responses. In regards to your last post, I do believe that the "end" - especially in regards to providing medical treatment to those who otherwise cannot afford it - justifies the means - "forced charity", as you call it. Your position is very understandable and I do respect it, however.
     
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Brett,
    I remember the days in Saskatchewan before medicare. I remember the doctors who gave all they had, freely when the could, and many went bankrupt. I remember when medicare was introduced and all the doctors up and left the people. The government brought doctors from England to serve the people and they loved it. Soon after, all provinces, except Alberta, wich benefitted from oil monies, followed Saskatchewans lead and medicare became universal in Canada.

    To say that it is forced charity is foolish, when the government is put in place by the people to do what is best for the voting people. There is no doubt that universal medicare is a benefit to all.

    Those of us who lived through the great depression years and then those of us who lived through the war in the UK, know what is like to go hungry and without work. Thank God for that "forced charity".

    The story could go on and on, but suffice it to say, I am proud to live in a country that does not fear the word socialism, and does believe that every citizen can gain vital help through government funded facilites of hope.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    That's why we have political debates. That's why countries have different forms of goverment. Lots of things we debate outside of the Bible(and obviously even some issues in the Bible based on the discussions on this board) are a "says you". [​IMG]
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about Canada but in the U.S. if you don't pay your taxes the government has a really nasty habit of coming after you to pay them, including freezing and seizing one's assets, such as your bank account and wages.

    I don't know why you have a problem with calling it forced "charity" since it is obviously not voluntary charity.
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    While I disagree, I respect your belief in this matter. [​IMG]
     
  10. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    Yes Russian was communist but also socialist. Socialism is a form of economic system and communism is a form of government. Everyone doesn't do right. Capitilism is the on the you work you eat principle. Most people at the hierarchy of a large company usually earned it. Whether or not they do right is up to them. Socialism is against the Bible because it says if you work or don't work but you get the same as everyone else. That isn't right. The Bible mentions to give an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. I work hard for what I earn. I already pay 40% of my income in taxes. I don't want more of it to go to people who don't want to work.
     
  11. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    The government didn't force them to. If you also look at the church of Jerusalem it died but that was for another reason. I have a question: do you think everything will be equal in heaven? I don't. Socialism is "equality". The Bible never mentions equality in heaven.
     
  12. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    Please explain a theistic communist. First of all look at who founded communism: Karl Marx. A godless ,man. you can be left and still be a chrristian but I don't see how you will join up with people who want nothing more than to destroy God. They are against the Bible. They are against freedom. When God made Adam and Eve, He gave them choice. Communism and the left prevent choice. They want you and your kids in their schools brainwashing them to say there is no God and all we are is a bunch of highly evolved animals. I reccomend reading two books, both by Sean Hannity: Let Freedom Ring and Deliver Us from Evil.
    He has written these books with facts. I have read both and they are enlightening.
     
  13. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Socialism is against the Bible because it says if you work or don't work but you get the same as everyone else

    _______________________________________________

    What planet does that idea come from? It sure doesn't relate to the socialism of England or Canada, and much of Europe, Scandanavia and Australia.

    The concept of socialism in a free democracy is to work for your living, but when you can't work, through no fault of your own, we are there to help you. We don't cry to the people: "Let them eat cake."

    Certainly there are some who abuse the system, but I would rather feed a man than whip him. I think you have a lot of reading to do, my friend, and a lot of growing up in the real world beyond the US borders.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    [ August 14, 2004, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]
     
  14. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    This may be true; however, the Bible never mentions "inequality" either.
    That is why I am a "Theistic Communist." When we are in the new Heaven and new Earth, there will be no need for government, as we will spend eternity serving the Lord God Almighty.
    Karl Marx did not invent communism - he borrowed it from Revelation 21. [​IMG]

    Sean is a "neoconservative," and these people are the reason I left the GOP. You should read Colmes' book - it is much more interesting. I have read that one.

    HOWEVER, I will read those books if you will read the book by Al Franken.

    Is that a deal? If so, then I will read one of them on my business trip to Indianapolis this week. I will check back with you on Saturday.
     
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I believe a better alternative to neo-conservativism is paleo-conservatism instead of "theistic communism". [​IMG]
     
  16. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Have you READ Marx? The ultra-materialist view of human nature found in his writings is so rancid that I wonder that any theist can stomach his stuff.

    As for democratic socialism, as in Sweden, etc., it is doomed to eventual collapse, but it is different than totalitarianism, at least in degree.

    As for Al Franken, the semi-educated comedian turned semi-educated political commentator, and Michael Moore, another rocket scientist--I managed to read a few paragraphs of each before reaching for the barf bag. Not that the cons don't have some over-the-top winners, but at least our guys (and gals) finished school!

    I would be very interested in seeing a few BIBLE passages that told the state to be the chief welfare momma. The most complete description of a state found in the New Testament seems to be mainly concerned with security and order--internal and external!

    Rom 13:1-7 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

    Since the Bible rule is "no work, no eat," I am fully in favor of helping people by handing them a broom and a shovel. I have no problem with the state supporting the needy, as long as those who are able-bodied have no problem with good hard physical labor. Any town with significant numbers of folks on the dole should have clean streets, manicured parks, and no trash by any road or street.
     
  17. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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  18. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Major B
    "Have you READ Marx?"
    ''
    IMO the most unreadable writer of the 19th century and that's before we get to his viewpoints.

    As for Michael Moore, I'm fairly certain that he is an comedian pretending to be a journalist/political activist. Overhere that is considered a highbrow style of comedy that is normal and recognized as such by most.
     
  19. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Mioque,

    Believe it or not, not only do Moore and Franken take themselves seriously, but their fans, the looney left, the diehard democrats, the edgy elitists, and those who lost significant brain cells during the 60s via "oky-smoky"--they also take them seriously.
     
  20. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    Sean is a "neoconservative," and these people are the reason I left the GOP. You should read Colmes' book - it is much more interesting. I have read that one.

    HOWEVER, I will read those books if you will read the book by Al Franken.

    Is that a deal? If so, then I will read one of them on my business trip to Indianapolis this week. I will check back with you on Saturday.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I'll read Franken's book. I'll also check his sources and see what they are compared to scripture. God never forces us to serve Him. Just look at Gog and Magog in Revelation.
     
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