Can A "good" Muslim be a good American?

[DHK]

Did you ever study statistics? Are you aware of what a spurious connection is? The classic example given in textbooks is that of rape and ice cream. We note that a statistical analysis will show that rape increases every single year at the same time that ice cream sales start to rise. When ice cream sales fall, so does the incidence of rape. Does this mean that rape is caused by eating ice cream? No one in full possession of their faculties would even suggest it.

And so???

It is like that with terrorism. The fact that you can personally think of however-many incidents of terrorism where the terrorists claimed to be Muslim, does not mean that Islam causes (or advocates) terrorism. Most terrorists are not Muslim, just the ones you hear about because of where you live. And most definitely, most Muslims do not support terrorism! Islam truly does condemn acts of violence against noncombatants in war, very explicitly.

And this little comparison is supposed to negate all the factual incidents of violent persecutions and killings done by Muslims in Islamic nations and elsewhere--fully documented, known, factual events which cannot be denied. Again, are you in denial? Islam is a violent religion.

Please refuse to allow your minds to be filled with hate toward those of another religion. This is not good for, and does not even make sense for, a Christian. Try to gain a deeper understanding of what in going on in your own hearts, as well as in the world. Someone is fooling you into hating, despite what Christ said. It can only be Satan, the great deceiver.

We don't hate Muslims. We hate the religion of violence; a relgion that teaches to kill; a religion that teaches its young men and women, and even children to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up in the name of their own religion; a religion of fatalism; a relgion where the only salvation is found in martyrdom or death for one's religion. No wonder it is so violent.

 

[amity]

We don't hate Muslims. We hate the religion of violence; a relgion that teaches to kill; a religion that teaches its young men and women, and even children to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up in the name of their own religion; a religion of fatalism; a relgion where the only salvation is found in martyrdom or death for one's religion. No wonder it is so violent.

The ONLY salvation? You know very little about Islam, it is evident.

What makes you think they learned this from Islam?

And what do you propose to do about "the religion of violence"? Prosyletize them? Incarcerate them? Kill them?

 

[rbell]

It is like that with terrorism. The fact that you can personally think of however-many incidents of terrorism where the terrorists claimed to be Muslim, does not mean that Islam causes (or advocates) terrorism. Most terrorists are not Muslim, just the ones you hear about because of where you live. And most definitely, most Muslims do not support terrorism!

Facts, please.

• The riots in France recently--young Muslims.
• The tragic circumstances in Dharfour, Sudan--Muslims committing genocide.
• 9/11--Muslims.
• London bombings--Muslims.
• The current violence in Somalia--Muslims.
• The Indonesia bombings of last year--Muslims.
• The vast majority of unstable countries: Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Azerbajan, Turkhmenistan, Sudan, Somalia, southern France...all are muslim countries, or are predominantly muslim populations (southern France, for instance).

That would indicate a stronger correlative than ice cream, you think? :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

The ONLY salvation? You know very little about Islam, it is evident.

More than you think. But I should have made myself clearer. The only assurance that any Muslim has of going to paradise is if he is a martyr for his faith. All others must rely entirely on the fate of Allah. It is a religion of fatalism. Regardless of your good works if it is Allah's decision to send you to hell, then that is where you will go. One has no assurance whatsoever of going to heaven. The assurance of heaven is only found in martyrdom.

What makes you think they learned this from Islam?

They are Islamic tactics know all over the world. Who else uses them? Baptists??
Terrorism is part and parcel of Islam. They will not rest until their world wide agenda is completed. Islam's overall goal is to be a one world religion--by any means possible.

And what do you propose to do about "the religion of violence"? Prosyletize them? Incarcerate them? Kill them?

It is good advice to "know your enemy." The enemy is Islam. Islam is the religion. It is a religion of hatred and violence, not of peace.
What do I propose to do about it? Win them to the Lord. That is the only way; the only answer to their violence--the peace of God. I work with Muslims.

 

[amity]

They are Islamic tactics know all over the world. Who else uses them? Baptists??
Terrorism is part and parcel of Islam. They will not rest until their world wide agenda is completed. Islam's overall goal is to be a one world religion--by any means possible.

So because these acts were committed by Muslims this means they were "Islamic tactics"? there is that rape and ice cream thing again. But wait! They were also all male! They were also all brunette! Do you think maleness or hair color might have had something to do with it?

It is good advice to "know your enemy." The enemy is Islam. Islam is the religion. It is a religion of hatred and violence, not of peace.
What do I propose to do about it? Win them to the Lord. That is the only way; the only answer to their violence--the peace of God. I work with Muslims.

You keep repeating this mantra of "it is a religion of hatred and violence" so ad nauseum that you are worrying me. Have you been brainwashed?

And although I would say that proselytism is less offensive than the other two alternatives, I doubt you will have much success. There are reasons for that, but you will have to free yourself from your present mind-set to understand them so you can be effective. I sort of admire you for having the guts to try to prosyletize people who you think are violent, though.

 

[DHK]

So because these acts were committed by Muslims this means they were "Islamic tactics"? there is that rape and ice cream thing again. But wait! They were also all male! They were also all brunette! Do you think maleness or hair color might have had something to do with it?

You sound like one that is afraid to face truth. Your comparison is (to say the least), inane.

You keep repeating this mantra of "it is a religion of hatred and violence" so ad nauseum that you are worrying me. Have you been brainwashed?

No, but I think you have, or, if not, then perhaps you are a Muslim yourself. Could that be the real case?

And although I would say that proselytism is less offensive than the other two alternatives, I doubt you will have much success. There are reasons for that, but you will have to free yourself from your present mind-set to understand them so you can be effective. I sort of admire you for having the guts to try to prosyletize people who you think are violent, though.

[/quote]
You see Christians, especailly Baptists, don't normally use the word "proseletyze." So, perhaps you are a Muslim under cover, yes?
You ignore the facts pointed out by others like rbell and LE.
You keep ignoring the infamous event of 9/11.
You want to say that Islam is peaceful when the facts point otherwise.

The Bible commands me to be a witness. It commands us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. So when I come in contact with Muslims I witness to them of the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. What else can one do. Their religion will only send them directly to Hell. Don't you care about that? Do you want them to spend an eternity in torment in Hell? Do you relish in that?
The answer is not in proseletyzing, but rather in telling them the gospel that Christ may reach down and save them from their wicked religion.

 

[amity]

You sound like one that is afraid to face truth. Your comparison is (to say the least), inane.

Yes, I admit I am making fun of you a little, and shouldn't do that.

No, but I think you have, or, if not, then perhaps you are a Muslim yourself. Could that be the real case?

No, that couldn't be the case.

You see Christians, especailly Baptists, don't normally use the word "proseletyze." So, perhaps you are a Muslim under cover, yes?

But it is the scriptural word. So its the word we should use.

You ignore the facts pointed out by others like rbell and LE.
You keep ignoring the infamous event of 9/11.
You want to say that Islam is peaceful when the facts point otherwise.

I am not trying to pin that on Islam. Why are you? Because it is easier than dealing with the real cause of events like that? I think I am onto something. Most people need to try to explain, and to find someone or something larger than just the perpetrators to blame. Islam is very handy and is obviously a big cipher in people's minds anyway.

The Bible commands me to be a witness. It commands us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. So when I come in contact with Muslims I witness to them of the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. What else can one do. Their religion will only send them directly to Hell. Don't you care about that? Do you want them to spend an eternity in torment in Hell? Do you relish in that?
The answer is not in proseletyzing, but rather in telling them the gospel that Christ may reach down and save them from their wicked religion.

Like I said, I sort of admire you. But I don't think Muslims are necessarily going to hell. Some will, some won't.

 

[rbell]

Like I said, I sort of admire you. But I don't think Muslims are necessarily going to hell. Some will, some won't.

Huh???????

Please tell me that I've misunderstood you here.

What about that pesky verse from Jesus..."I am the Way, the Truth, the Life..."

I'm hoping I misunderstood you or that you didn't make yourself clear.

If you really meant that the way it came out...oh boy, we've thrown John 14:6 completely out the window...

 

[amity]

c'mon rbell, you already know I'm a predestinarian.

 

[rbell]

So what you're saying is...there are those who are currently Muslims that at a later time will become believers. Is that it?

On the page it looked more like "If they're really good Muslims, they might get in," and I couldn't see you saying that.

 

[DHK]

But it is the scriptural word. So its the word we should use.

Never once do you find the word proseletyze in reference to the Christian faith. People are saved, not proseletyzed. It was only a term used in reference to Judaism. Thus it is not a Biblical term in reference to Christianity. Peolpe become members of local churches because they get saved and then baptized. (Acts 2:41). There is never any mention of proseletyzation.

I am not trying to pin that on Islam. Why are you? Because it is easier than dealing with the real cause of events like that? I think I am onto something. Most people need to try to explain, and to find someone or something larger than just the perpetrators to blame. Islam is very handy and is obviously a big cipher in people's minds anyway.

So who do you want to pin the events of 9/11 on. Again, are you in denial? The Muslims admitted it. There was rejoicing in the streets at the deaths of these Americans in Islamic nations such as Pakistan when the WTC towers were destroyed, and civilians were killed. And yet you say it is a peaceful nation. You say you have expertise in this field. I don't believe that. You are a pretender. People who rejoice at the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians killed at the hands of Muslims are themselves somewhat deranged. If I took a shotgun and destroyed your family because I didn't like your family's religion what would you think of me? That I am violent or peaceful? By your logic I am a peaceful man, carrying out a mission that I believe in. Facts speak for themselves. Islam is a violent religion. Karachi, the captial of Pakistan, has been termed by journalists as "the city of death." It is not safe for foreigners there. Others admit that it is not even safe for Pakistanis there. It is a city of 15 million people, one of the largest in the world, and yet a Muslim city of terrible violence.

Like I said, I sort of admire you. But I don't think Muslims are necessarily going to hell. Some will, some won't.

That is a statement of terrible heresy.
Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me."
Jesus is the only way to heaven; there is no other way.
Muslims not only claim that Christ is not divine but that he is only a prophet.
Furthermore, they claim that salvation is through Allah and his prophet Mohammed. It is a religion borne out of fear and of works. It is a religion diametrically opposed to Christianity. NO Muslim can believe in his religion and go to heaven. It is an impossibility.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Never once do you find the word proseletyze in reference to the Christian faith. People are saved, not proseletyzed. It was only a term used in reference to Judaism. Thus it is not a Biblical term in reference to Christianity. Peolpe become members of local churches because they get saved and then baptized. (Acts 2:41). There is never any mention of proseletyzation.

So who do you want to pin the events of 9/11 on. Again, are you in denial? The Muslims admitted it. There was rejoicing in the streets at the deaths of these Americans in Islamic nations such as Pakistan when the WTC towers were destroyed, and civilians were killed. And yet you say it is a peaceful nation. You say you have expertise in this field. I don't believe that. You are a pretender. People who rejoice at the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians killed at the hands of Muslims are themselves somewhat deranged. If I took a shotgun and destroyed your family because I didn't like your family's religion what would you think of me? That I am violent or peaceful? By your logic I am a peaceful man, carrying out a mission that I believe in. Facts speak for themselves. Islam is a violent religion. Karachi, the captial of Pakistan, has been termed by journalists as "the city of death." It is not safe for foreigners there. Others admit that it is not even safe for Pakistanis there. It is a city of 15 million people, one of the largest in the world, and yet a Muslim city of terrible violence.

That is a statement of terrible heresy.
Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me."
Jesus is the only way to heaven; there is no other way.
Muslims not only claim that Christ is not divine but that he is only a prophet.
Furthermore, they claim that salvation is through Allah and his prophet Mohammed. It is a religion borne out of fear and of works. It is a religion diametrically opposed to Christianity. NO Muslim can believe in his religion and go to heaven. It is an impossibility.

What Muslims admitted to 9/11? Some unnamed folks in the street that celebrated? If they admitted it, shouldn't we be prosecuting them? The guy the U.S. Gov't accused of spearheading these acts doesn't admit them:

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle." - Usama Bin Laden

Karachi is the capital of one of our greatest allies in the "War on Terror", seems odd that you would pick the Pakistanis to criticize. If we are going to throw stones at violent capitals perhaps we should be wary of the glass house called Washington DC?

I agree that all Muslims are going to Hell and it is a terrible heresy to suggest otherwise. However, terrible heresy seems to start at the top in this nation...

Q: Do we all worship the same God, Christian and Muslim
George W Bush: I think we do. We have different routes to getting to the almighty.

Q: Do Muslims go to heaven?
George W Bush: Yes they do. We have different routes of getting there.​

 

[reformedbeliever]

Well, let's do that then, but it doesn't change the content or the meaning of the verses I quoted earlier, but let's look at the historical context just for a technicality:

The latter violent suras of Medina supercede the earlier peaceful suras of Mecca.

A Genocide, the Jews of Medina: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/jews.htm



http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/Juwairiyah.htm

Ever hear about what happened to 800-900 Jews of Medina? Islamic apologists will deny that they were beheaded with their heads falling into ditches and their property plundered and their wives and children raped and sold into slavery.

Mohammed was angry with Jews who rejected his new self-proclaimed religion with him as the new self-proclaimed prophet on a par with Moses! So he butchered them!

More Articles here:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles.htm

Islam under scrutiny by ex-Muslims: (a bunch of articles on the history of islam)

http://www.islam-watch.org/

Testimonies of ex-Muslims:

http://bibleprobe.com/islamapostates.htm

Again, please provide any context that would demonstrate any of the verses that were taken from the Koran were out of context in an effort to skew their meaning.

Or provide proof that the earlier peaceful suras of Mecca (when Mohammed was trying to persuade the Jews to turn to his religion) supercede the later violent suras of Medina (after he had gathered enough followers to begin genocide).

And since you seem to want to throw Christianity and the Bible into this thread as a straw man debate tactic, apples and oranges, as DHK mentioned, shall we do a comparison between the character and life of Jesus Christ and the character and life of Mohammed?

Here, I'll start: Jesus Christ died so that others may live.
Mohammed lived so that others may die.

What a great source for history! I've learned something. We can throw the history books out the window! All you gotta do is go to the internet and read a bunch of biased "history" and there you have it!

 

[reformedbeliever]

Why don't we just hate these muslims to Jesus. I'm sure that is what Jesus would have said... "hate them and they will come to me".

Matt. 5:43. "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44. "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45. so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on {the} evil and {the} good, and sends rain on {the} righteous and {the} unrighteous.
46. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47. "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing {than others?} Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48. "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


This thread is an example of loving your enemies? Can a "good" Muslim be a good American? What a way to win thousands of Muslims to Christianity! I really should not have expected any better from this bb. This bb is famous for Christians having other Christians for breakfast. If we hate each other, why not hate someone of another religion? What surprises me is that moderators are the main ones defending this thread..... I should not be surprised!
Why should I be surprised by this when so many (including moderators) seem to fail to take heed to Jesus' prayer in John 17. Yeah, we are almost in unity and one .............. especially when it comes to hating other people. You can ban me now.

 

[webdog]

RB, what is wrong with this thread...and why the explosion? I don't see Christians eating their own...but I do see Christians arguing for and defending a pagan religion, which to me is quite sad. I also have not read anywhere on these 10 pages where anybody showed hate toward a muslim...just the religion itself of islam.

The OP was can someone who is loyal to islam be loyal to the USA? As has been shown through the Koran...NO!

 

[LadyEagle]

RB, one would think that as a Southern Baptist minister, as you claim to be in your profile, that you would be interested in learning the truth about islam and islamic history from ex-Muslims, historical data, and the Koran so you would know what they really believe. You admitted you don't know too much about it, yet you are quick to defend islam. That seems quite puzzling to me from someone who claims to be a minister of the gospel, and a Baptist on top of that! You are so quick to judge and accuse the brethren here of hatred, yet are in denial of the truth of islam. And we haven't even gotten into the Hadiths yet. Or what is documented in their own islamic history about the Mohammed himself.

Do you disagree that Jesus died so that others may live and Mohammed lived so that others may die?

Here's an example of Christian men in Turkey who tried to witness to muslims in an islamic country, Turkey, and a scenario that is played out in islamic countries all over the world on a daily basis. Have you ever talked to missionaries in those muslim countries, or have you ever even talked with an ex-Muslim who is now a follower of Jesus Christ? Have you ever looked into the subject of Christian persecution or do you even care?

FACT: Over 250 million Christians will be persecuted and murdered in 2007 - the majority in muslim countries.

Widow of slain Christian " Forgive them"
Surely God sent His angels to minister to them as they were being tortured and dying. :tear:

(Editor's Note: This report contains a graphic description of the martyrdom of three Christian men.)


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55426


As a self professed Southern Baptist minister (on your profile), your blindness to the truth of islam is appalling and your defense of a false religion that persecutes and murders Christians (including Baptists) is incomprehensible.

 

[reformedbeliever]

RB, one would think that as a Southern Baptist minister, as you claim to be in your profile, that you would be interested in learning the truth about islam and islamic history from ex-Muslims, historical data, and the Koran so you would know what they really believe. You admitted you don't know too much about it, yet you are quick to defend islam. That seems quite puzzling to me from someone who claims to be a minister of the gospel, and a Baptist on top of that! You are so quick to judge and accuse the brethren here of hatred, yet are in denial of the truth of islam. And we haven't even gotten into the Hadiths yet. Or what is documented in their own islamic history about the Mohammed himself.

Do you disagree that Jesus died so that others may live and Mohammed lived so that others may die?

Here's an example of Christian men in Turkey who tried to witness to muslims in an islamic country, Turkey, and a scenario that is played out in islamic countries all over the world on a daily basis. Have you ever talked to missionaries in those muslim countries, or have you ever even talked with an ex-Muslim who is now a follower of Jesus Christ? Have you ever looked into the subject of Christian persecution or do you even care?

FACT: Over 250 million Christians will be persecuted and murdered in 2007 - the majority in muslim countries.

Widow of slain Christian " Forgive them"
Surely God sent His angels to minister to them as they were being tortured and dying. :tear:

(Editor's Note: This report contains a graphic description of the martyrdom of three Christian men.)


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55426


As a self professed Southern Baptist minister (on your profile), your blindness to the truth of islam is appalling and your defense of a false religion that persecutes and murders Christians (including Baptists) is incomprehensible.

Lady Eagle and Webdog. You fail to read my posts. I am not defending Islam. I even said that I agree that the Islamists certainly do not love Jews or Christians, or any unbeliever. What I am against is the title of this thread. It is hateful. Can a "good" Muslim be a good American? What is the purpose of the "good"? Don't we have thousands of "good" Muslims living in America who have condemned 911? Or do you want to call them liars too? This is what I am against. I am for truth. The Bible is truth. I believe that the Islamic faith is from satan. I do not think we will win any of them to Christ by hating them however. Should we fight the Muslim extreemist? Yes. I do not believe in pacifism. We have to defend ourselves. But to hate them with such a thread? I do not agree.
You are absoltuely right that I do not know much at all about the Islamic faith. I am trying to learn. I don't think that i'll learn much from one of the sources you provided Lady Eagle. They are humanistic and against Christianity as much as they are the Islamic faith. Did you read all the hyperlinks you provided? I didn't either. I suppose I just got lucky and the first one I read convinced me that your sources were probably not the best to try to learn from.
I am hosting a girl from Azerbaijan this August for ten months. We hope to show her Christian love and the Gospel. If she read the title of this thread, I think that our work would be hindered. Do you not see what I am saying? Thankfully, your opinion of whether I should be a minister will not be a deciding factor of whether or not I remain. Thank you for hopefully taking the time to read this. I am against the title of this thread. I am for the one true Holy Book and the one true God and Savior Jesus Christ. I think we should try harder to pick up our cross and follow Him, and give just a little effort to subdue the hate I see for fellow Christians and others that has been exhibited on this bb. The debate section if full of people with opinions..... and quick to jump down other people's throat.... but when I post in the prayer section for the members here to pray for my family as we try to show Christian love to this Muslim girl......... there are hardly any responses. Do you understand what I am saying Lady Eagle, or do want to argue about that too?

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

RB, what is wrong with this thread...and why the explosion? I don't see Christians eating their own...but I do see Christians arguing for and defending a pagan religion, which to me is quite sad. I also have not read anywhere on these 10 pages where anybody showed hate toward a muslim...just the religion itself of islam.

The OP was can someone who is loyal to islam be loyal to the USA? As has been shown through the Koran...NO!

Amen brother...

 

[LadyEagle]

Y

ou are absoltuely right that I do not know much at all about the Islamic faith. I am trying to learn. I don't think that i'll learn much from one of the sources you provided Lady Eagle. They are humanistic and against Christianity as much as they are the Islamic faith. Did you read all the hyperlinks you provided? I didn't either. I suppose I just got lucky and the first one I read convinced me that your sources were probably not the best to try to learn from.

I tried to choose links that did not have a Christian bias, because I have been accused of providing Christian bias towards islam links in the past. If you prefer Christian links, then I will post those. But the subject matter is much the same because the subject matter is based on written history as well as what islam teaches.

I am hosting a girl from Azerbaijan this August for ten months. We hope to show her Christian love and the Gospel. If she read the title of this thread, I think that our work would be hindered.

Then I would not lead her to read the title of this thread. The OP of this thread asks a legitimate question that is applicable to our nation and the influx of political ideologies (and that is what islam really is) that are diametrically opposed to our way of life and democracy as we have known it.

BTW, there is Christian persecution in Azerbaijan going on right now. I pray you will be able to show this girl Christian love and the Gospel. In fact, you might want to consider purchasing the Jesus Film for her - it is available in most languages of the world and many muslims are discovering the truth and finding Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior through the Jesus Film ministry - all over the world. They are raised in a religion of violence and works and oppression and suppression. The testimonies of the ones coming to Jesus Christ are amazing and they are amazed to discover the One True God, Jehovah, loves them enough to send His Son to die for their sins, that He was not just a prophet as they have always been taught, but truly He is the Son of God.

http://www.jesusfilm.org

 

[reformedbeliever]

RB, what is wrong with this thread...and why the explosion?

What is wrong with this thread is the title. The other thing that is wrong is the implication that a "good" Muslim can not be a good American. There are the majority of "good" Christians who believe that there is another way to salvation other than Jesus. I don't have the statistical information, but it seems I remember that over 50% of Southern Baptist believe that someone who trys hard and has a belief in a higher power can be saved. They would not say that Jesus is the only way. What I am saying is to not lump everyone in any particular religion as a terrorist because of the action of some extreemist. If one fifth of the world population is muslim, don't you think they would have taken over by now if they were all "good" muslims. That is a scary thought huh?
Can a "good" Christian be a good American? Depends on what you call "good" huh? How about Jews? How about any non Christian? I think the whole idea of this thread is flawed.
Lady Eagle. I don't know what you think are the requirements for a "good" minister. I am however thankful that my job as a minister is not dependent upon any man. I am a minister by the call of God and His appointment of such. As far as a "Baptist" minister, I hold to the baptist distinctives... and as such, I believe in the autonomy of the local church. If you have a problem with me being a "Baptist" minister send me a private message and í'll give you all the information you need to contact my church. If i'm fired i'll loose all that money that they pay me. You wouldn't want that to happen to me would you? :laugh: By the way........ I do not accept a paycheck. :thumbs: