Can a person loose salvation or Once saved always saved?

If you assume that Judas was unsaved, then you assume that he tricked God and that the Holy Spirit entered into him and he used the Holy Spirit to perform the sign-gifts.

 

Am I to take from that that you believe that Judas was saved HoG? I mean I learn something new on here all the time.

 

J. Jump;
Why, because I turned your ways back on you?

 

Am I to take it that you think that Judas tricked Jesus and the Holy Spirit indwelt him and he had the sign gifts and yet was unsaved?

Or do you think he lost his salvation?

John 12:4 says, "Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot..."

The Bible calls him a disciple. He was someone who embraced the teachings of the Lord.

Notice that it doesn't say, "Then saith one who claimed to be a disciple" or anything along those lines.

He was a disciple!

To be a disciple of Jesus Christ you must be saved. A disciple is called out from among the saved people. Not everyone that is saved is a disciple. It is conditional.

A disciple is learning to live his life through faith by continually hearing the Word of God, as we're told in Romans 10:17. He has his eyes on the future reward in the next age. He is esteeming "things hoped for" and "things not seen" which are the things recorded in the Scriptures and which God is preparing to bring down from heaven to this earth in very near future.

Discipleship has to do with submitting to water baptism and other commandments of obedience and being taught the commands of Jesus Christ. A disciple is "growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ," in 2 Peter 3:18. He continues in the words of Christ and applies the truth in his lifestyle, which sets him free from the power of sin.

John 8:31: " Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

Judas was a disciple! He was saved!

 

Keep those one-liners rolling Bob you're cracking me up man :laugh:

Now if you want to get back to some substinative discussion I would be more than happy to discuss Scripture with you, but I'm not into playing games. Once the name calling comes out it's pretty much over for me.

 

And who started the one liners and the name calling, not me and that only leave you!

 

Judas was chosen for what he was so he could help carry out what the Lord wanted him to do. We have plenty of preachers today who were never real to start with. I watch them all the time. No, Judas didn't fool anyone, but was chosen because he was the son of eternal damnation or perdition.

When did he stop being a deciple for he took part in the Last Supper when Jesus said "one of you shall betray me" and at that time Judas had not did anything unless you think Judas took only part of the Apostleship and then Jesus figured out who he was, is that it? Jesus was God in the flesh and doubt if anyone fooled him.

None of the other Apostle could of done what Judas did. You are the one who believes so much in predestination, why do I have to keep telling you these things?

 

That one deserves a double :laugh: :laugh: . I needed that good laugh before heading off to work! Thanks!

 

Where did this come from and what does it have to do with the discussion at hand?

John 12:4: "Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot..."

I didn't originate the idea that Judas was saved, the Bible did.

So, do you think people can lose their spiritual salvation?

 

No, apparently you do. Unless you believe Judas will be in Heaven. Is that what you believe?

I think Judas was chosen for what he was "the son of perdition". So he took part in the ministry but another was chosen to

take his place. I think he was a son of the devil all along and when the predestinated time came he betrayed the Lord and

fullfill what he was chosen to do because of what he was. That is my take on the Scriptures. Yes he was called an Apostle and

yes he took part in the ministry but no one knew but the Lord Himself who even knew the hour He would die on the cross.

 

HP: Doesn’t this seem sort of fatalistic? How can Judas be responsible, thus blamed for his actions, if in fact it was not anything more than the predestined act of God? Can you even conceive of a Loving and Holy God that would personally orchestrate the evils perpetrated on the Savior? Is this not situation ethics run amuck, in that if it serves a good purpose (salvation) it is alright to be the author of this horrible evil?

 

Now, you're not only making stuff up about J. Jump and the Bible, but you're making up stuff about me. Why can you not simply stick to the facts without making stuff up to try to "prove" your point?

The Bible says he was saved.

The Bible says you cannot lose your spiritual salvation.

The Bible says you are responsible for your actions.

Will Judas be held accountable? Unless he confessed his sin and repented, then he certainly will.

Will I be held accountable for unconfessed sin in my life? Without a doubt.

It's just a matter of degree.

 

HP: Possibly you might have a reference for these notions?

 

It was only one page back. Perhaps you missed it:

Acts 16:30-31 states it most simply. It's the only place in the Bible in which the question "What must I do to be saved?" is both asked and answered: "Believe (event, not continuous action) on the Lord Jesus and you will (not may; indicative; it's a fact) be saved."

 

I think you read an awful lot into the word "disciple". Jesus called Him a devil...and said it would have been better if he was never born. Doesn't sound like a true "disciple" to me!

 

HP: What do you see as the significance of the word “IF?” Did Judas 'continue in' God's Word?

 

Well, the Bible calls him a disciple, doesn't it?

Now, that doesn't mean that he didn't fall away; that at some point, he no longer continued in God's word.

But, we're told that if you continue in God's word, you're a disciple, and Judas is called a disciple, with no if's, and's, or but's and no "false disciple" or anything such as that.

John 12:4: "Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot..."

John 8:31: " Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

If "disciple" can mean "false disciple", then I guess we could twist the great commission to say "go and make false disciples of all nations". But, it can't mean that. "Disciple" means "disciple".

Easton's has this to say: Disciple
A scholar, sometimes applied to the followers of John the Baptist (Mat_9:14), and of the Pharisees (Mat_22:16), but principally to the followers of Christ. A disciple of Christ is one who
(1.) believes His doctrine,
(2.) rests on His sacrifice,
(3.) imbibes His spirit, and
(4.) imitates His example
(Mat_10:24; Luk_14:26, Luk_14:27, Luk_14:33; Joh_6:69).

The ISBN has this to say: Disciple
di-sī´p'l:
(1) Usually a substantive (μαθητής, mathētḗs, “a learner,” from manthánō, “to learn”; Latin discipulus, “a scholar”): The word is found in the Bible only in the Gospels and Acts. But it is good Greek, in use from Herodotus down, and always means the pupil of someone, in contrast to the master or teacher (διδάσκαλος, didáskalos). See Mat_10:24; Luk_6:40. In all cases it implies that the person not only accepts the views of the teacher, but that he is also in practice an adherent. The word has several applications. In the widest sense it refers to those who accept the teachings of anyone, not only in belief but in life. Thus the disciples of John the Baptist (Mat_9:14; Luk_7:18; Joh_3:25); also of the Pharisees (Mat_22:16; Mar_2:18; Luk_5:33); of Moses (Joh_9:28). But its most common use is to designate the adherents of Jesus. (a) In the widest sense (Mat_10:42; Luk_6:17; Joh_6:66, and often). It is the only name for Christ's followers in the Gospels. But (b) especially the Twelve Apostles, even when they are called simply the disciples (Mat_10:1; Mat_11:1; Mat_12:1, et al.). In the Acts, after the death and ascension of Jesus, disciples are those who confess Him as the Messiah, Christians (Act_6:1, Act_6:2, Act_6:7; Act_9:36 (feminine, mathḗtria); Act_11:26, “The disciples were called Christians”). Even half-instructed be-lievers who had been baptized only with the baptism of John are disciples (Act_19:1-4).
(2) We have also the verb, μαθητεύω, mathēteúō, “Jesus' disciple” (literally, “was discipled to Jesus,” Mat_27:57); “Make disciples of all the nations” (the King James Version “teach,” Mat_28:19); “had made many disciples” (the King James Version “taught many,” Act_14:21); “every scribe who hath been made a disciple to the kingdom of heaven” (the King James Version “instructed,” Mat_13:52). The disciple of Christ today may be described in the words of Farrar, as “one who believes His doctrines, rests upon His sacrifice, imbibes His spirit, and imitates His example.”
The Old Testament has neither the term nor the exact idea, though there is a difference between teacher and scholar among David's singers (1Ch_25:8), and among the prophetic guilds the distinction between the rank and file and the leader (1Sa_19:20; 2Ki_6:5).

 

I think you may be reading a lot into it, if you think that "disciple" can mean "false disciple". (Or maybe you're not reading enough into it and think that "disciple" can mean just about anyone.)

A "devil" is nothing more than an accuser. (The only thing that I can recall Judas accusing anyone of is not giving enough into the coffers, but he was accused of stealing from the bag. He was a thief and wanted more money to steal.) A slanderer; an adversary. When used with the definite article, it generally refers to Satan, but in John 7:60, there is no definite article.

 

Also you have to remember Jesus called Peter Satan and told Peter to get behind Him. Now no one is going to argue that Peter wasn't saved, but he was treated much more harshly than Judas.

Again church traditions are really clouding the Scriptures in these last days much like traditions clouded the Scriptures during the time of Christ.

 

HP: Jesus was not speaking directly to Peter, but to 'Satan’ who was obviously using Peter to his own advantage, when He spoke. Satan is not Peter, and Peter is not Satan, but Jesus did indeed state that Judas was indeed a devil.