Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

Well, I'll make this as loving as possible, as you say the Arminian can not know beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is also true that the Calvinist can not know either. Whether I am Calvinist or Arminian does not change what is true, only what we beleive to be true.

 

You apparently are not reading My posts thoroughly.

I am saying there is the same amount of uncertainty for one who does believes in eternal security as there is for one who does not believe in eternal security.

In general, those who believe in eternal secuirty, believe that a person who stops believing was not a True Christian in the first place. The uncertainty comes from how does an ES Christian really know that he is a True Christian now when others who apparently stopped believing were not True Christians then?

In a similar way, the uncertainty for a Non ES Believer comes from if he will continue to be a believer.

Both ES Christians and Non ES Christians can see about the same amount of uncertainty in the other's beliefs. However, in both cases, each is sure of his own continued salvation by faith.

By the way, most Arminians do not believe a Christian can lose their salvation. Only the Weslayan Arminians believe a Christian can lose their salvation. However, all Arminians do believe a Christian can forfeit their salvation.

 

Luke writes:
"Help me to understand how ANYONE can KNOW they are going to be in heaven if they think it is possible for them to lose their salvation."

Help me to understand how ANYONE can KNOW they are going to be in heaven if they think that someone who believes he is a Christian and later stops believing, was not a True Christian in the first place. Under this belief, how does anyone know that he is really a True Christian now?

The answer in both beliefs is by faith. Those who do not believe in ES are just as sure of their continued salvation as those who do.

 

The Holy Spirit confirms this supernaturally. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. It's not a hope so salvation,but a know so salvation. I believe in the eternal security of the true believer and the insecurity of the make believer.

 

Your first sentence is a good answer for both ES Christians and Non ES Christians. Apparently, you are under the mistaken impression that Arminians have a hope so salvation. This is not true. Arminians also have a know so salvation.

Those who have a hope so salvation, are not Arminians and probably not even real Christians.

I have attended a SBC church for over 17 years which believes in eternal security. I have not seen in any SBC literature that Arminians have a hope so salvation. However, I have seen it implied. They wisely don't put it in writing because it is so easily shown not to be true.

I suggest that you go to a website of a large Non ES denomination website and check it out for yourself. This type misrepresentation of
Arminians has been floating around the ES world for many years. However, with the easy availability of denomination websites, it is now easy to check out for yourself.

 

Baloney ,if one believes they might fall away in the end...thats not "Know so" salvation...thats probation "hope so". They can be born again but feel they cannot be sure about their final destination.....their still secure weather they feel like it or not.

 

If one falls away in the end, ES says that they were not really a TRUE Christian, they just thought they were.

Arminians are just as sure of their continued salvation as ES Christians are sure that they are TRUE Christians now and will not fall away.

As I said before, the practical difference between ES and Arminians is a matter of definitions, terminoloy and a play on words.

Again, I suggest that you go to a respected Non-ES source and check it out. Some ES sources have misrepresented Arminian beliefs for years.

 

The bible not good enough?

 

The question of this thread is:

Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

The answer is that all Arminians (as well as all ES believers) can know that heaven is their home.

The scripture debate on eternal security has been going on for hundreds of years with both sides still claiming to be right. Nothing will be gained by continuing that debate here. In practical applications, the difference is just a matter of definitions and terminology. You can say it your way and I can say it my way.

Peace.

 

I saw the question very clearly,but you seem to try to build a case that really does not make sense.

 

I suggest that you step back from your ES training and look objectively at what I really said. ES Christians are reluctant to consider the Arminians position because they have been wrongly taught that their salvation will be in doubt if they don't use the ES terminology and definitions.

 

The Arminian assurance of heaven is just as sure as the ES Christian assurance of heaven. The ES Christian assurance of heaven is based on faith that he is a True Christian now and therefore will not stop trusting in Christ. The Arminian assurance of heaven is based on faith that God will keep him trusting in Christ unless he later makes a decision to forfeit his salvation. A Christian who makes a decision to accept God's free grace can also make a decision to forfeit it.

Both depend on faith in Christ for salvation and in His keeping power. Both use different terminology and definitions to say the same thing. It appears that your long time ES teaching will not allow you to see the Arminian position. I have been in a SBC ES church for over 17 years and can see both sides of the issue.

I see no reason to continue this round and round discussion. Thank you for your inputs and responses.

drfuss signing off on this thread.

 

Trust in Jesus

I wasn’t called to tell people they have an assurance of heaven. I am called to tell people to trust in Jesus for salvation. I wouldn’t want to live a life not trusting in Jesus. The scripture teaches that it is those who believe that will be saved. If I am wrong well those who are to be saved they will be saved no matter what and I will not regret my life because I encouraged people to believe. If I am right then we would have changed many lives because we taught people to trust in Jesus. I would hate to be wrong and tell someone they will be in heaven and they have assurance of this and then they face Jesus and Jesus tell them I never knew you go away you evil doer.

 

I'm in late to this thread, which I have found interesting and educational.

I have had a different view of losing one's salvation. In this thread, it seems that one may forfeit salvation only if he ceases to believe. I suppose that is consistent. If one may will to believe for salvation, then he may will not to believe any more. Non-Cal Baptists who hold to ES are inconsistent here, holding that one may freely choose salvation, but may not freely unchoose it.

My view has also included the question of persistent sin. Don't Arminians believe that one may sin away his salvation? That's what I always thought. I have counseled people who say they have not stopped believing, but because of sin they are no longer saved. And if that's the case, how many sins does it take? At what point does one sin enough to cross the line from being saved to being lost again? Or, as I'm reading in this thread, does it make any difference?

Now, to be clear, I hold to ES. I believe our salvation is not dependent on us, but on Christ alone. We are "kept by God." I hold that one who is truly saved will not unbelieve down the road.

 

Faith is not what saves you, it is Jesus that saves. Faith will bring you to Christ, but that coming to Christ does not make you spiritually alive. It is when you come to Jesus that he gives you everlasting life. Jesus is the only one who has power to give us life. And it is everlasting, so by definition it cannot end. You cannot be unborn once you are born again, and if it is everlasting life you cannot die.

Faith is not some magical force and it is not a feeling. I can demonstrate that right now.

If I asked you right now to name three people you trust, I would bet almost immediately three persons would pop into your mind. You might say your spouse, and your father and mother. Did you have to have a feeling to answer this question? NO. And I don't need a feeling for this, I can name whom I trust easily, almost without thought, and certainly without feeling.

And the opposite is true. If I asked you to name a person you do not trust, you would automatically say Barack Obama! :tongue3:

That was a joke, but you get the idea. Faith is not a feeling.

FAITH IS DEPENDENCE OR RELIANCE BASED ON KNOWLEDGE BASED ON A RELATIONSHIP

You trust your spouse or parents because of your personal relationship with them. You know them to be faithful to you from experience. You don't have to work this faith up, you don't have to continue to work to maintain this faith, faith comes naturally from having a personal relationship with another person.

And lack of faith is just the same. If you have a family member who is known to lie or steal, from experince you do not trust them. It is not a feeling, your faith is a natural result of having a personal relationship with them.

Now, how can you have a personal relationship with Jesus? How can you get to know him in a personal way so that you can trust him? Well, the most important thing you can do is read the scriptures, because they reveal who Jesus is.

Jesus said that he would not cast out anyone who comes to him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Now, I know for an absolute fact that I came to Jesus. I came to him in sincere prayer and asked him to forgive all my sins and give me everlasting life.

Now, my only way of having assurance can be on whether I believe Jesus to be honest. Jesus said that if I come to him, that in no way would he cast me out.

Can I believe this? Did Jesus ever lie? Would he mislead me?

The only way I can know if Jesus lied or misled me is to read the scriptures, to get to know Him.

Do the scriptures show Jesus as very loving and merciful, and desiring to save persons from their sins? YES.

Do the scriptures ever show Jesus disappointing anyone? Did he turn away the blind, or the lame, or the lepers who came to Him? NO.

So, the more I read the scriptures, the more I am convinced that Jesus is the very Son of God who cannot lie. He will never lie to me or anyone else. He does not give insincere invitations, if he says "come unto me" he means it. And when he promised that he would not cast me out under any circumstances, then I can know and rest fully assured that I will be saved.

And the best part of all, is the more time you spend in the scriptures learning of Jesus, getting to know him personally, the more your faith will grow. You will not need to work it up, you will not need to work to maintain this faith. It will come naturally, just as your faith grows in a faithful person like your spouse, parents, or brothers and sisters. Through getting to know them and experience with them, your faith will grow naturally.

So, I KNOW I am saved. I know I came to Jesus, and I know he will never cast me out.