Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

Salvation

I am a messenger of Jesus not the judge. The only way to get out of the condemnation that we face is to trust in Jesus.

Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

I am in no category I trust in Jesus and His word. Their is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

We all have the same hope and He is Jesus. All those who put their trust in Jesus will not be disappointed.

 

Having thought this over, I believe that some of you don't realize the context of which I gave answers. As I said in a previous post, both Arminians and ES Christians can know that Heaven is his home.

I have studied the various security of the believer beliefs and come up with five Christian beliefs that I have documents for and include the main denominations except the Catholic Church. These five do not include any hope so beliefs or universal salvation type beliefs.

Four of these beliefs are taken from a book by four theology professors entitled "Four Views on Eternal Security" by Zondervan. The other view is from Charles Stanley's Book entitled "Eternal Security".

In each case, the authors are sure of their salvation in their belief. However, each of the four authors in the same book, found uncertainties about the continued salvation of the believer in the other beliefs. Each author could see no uncertainties in his own belief. Stanley only wrote about his own belief.

Below are the five different beliefs and the uncertainties noted by others. The uncertainties listed below are from the other professors:

Five Point Calvinist - Here the belief is perservence of the saints (elect). If a Christian does not perserve in trusting Christ, he was not a part of the elect. The uncertainty is 'How does one know that he will not stop trusting Christ in the future, and is therefore not a part of the elect'?

Eternal Security (some times called Moderate Calvinist) - Here the belief is that a True Christian will continue trusting Christ to the end. If a 'Christian' later stops trusting Christ, he was not a True Christian in the first place, he just thought he was. THe uncertainty is 'How does one know that he will not stop trusting Christ in the future, and is therefore not a True Christian now.

Arminian (classic) - Here the belief is that a True Christian can stop trusting Christ and would forfeit his salvation by doing so. Using the same scriptures the ES Christians use, the Arminian believes he will not stop trusting in Christ. However, do to the many scriptural warnings, the Arminian believes a True Christian can stop trusting in Christ. The uncertainty is how does he know he will continue believing.

Wesleyan Arminian - Here the belief is that a Christian can lose his salvation be long time resisting of the Holy Spirit's conviction to confess, repent and turn from know sins. The undertainty is how does he know that he wil be sensitive to the long time convictions of the Holy Spirit.

Charles Stanley - Charles Stanley agrees with the Arminians that a True Christian can stop believing, but differs in that he will still go to heaven even if he is not believing when he dies. Of the five listed here, Stanley is the only one who believes that a person can go to heaven even if he is not trusting in Christ then he dies. You can find it in Chapter 8 in his book which is entitled 'For Those Who Stop Believing'.

Note that for believers in each belief, the believers are sure of their own continued salvation and cannot see the uncertainties others see in their belief. The Wesleyan Arminians can probably see how others can see the uncertainties.

Hopefully this will help you understand why my answer is that Arminians and ES Christians can both be equally assured of their continued salvation.

 

My Brother your doing alot of gymnastics that sidestep the OP. I did read your post very carefully and see you mix alot together that should not. I love Charles Stanley but "if" he really believes that a TRUE believer can stop believing in Christ......well that's not scriptural. John 10:5 makes it clear "But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." True believers cannot stop believing.....no way! If you think diffrent them your of the Arminiun mind and will go in circles as you have here. If one says "I was once a born again christian,but I see things diffrently now"....was they really born of the Holy Spirit of God? The Spirit of TRUTH? No! Arminians on the other hand can be born again and lack confidence....but will still go to Heaven. What Arminians CANNOT have is certainty they will be in Heaven "because they might fail" ect. ect.in their thinking. This is what the OP was asking from the start.

 

The above is an approach similar to that of the four professors in the book. The professors could not (or would not) acknowledge the uncertainties (identified by the others) in their own belief, but would put emphasis on and embellish the uncertainties he perceived in the others beliefs.

I suppose most of us have been guilty of this approach at one time or another.

All of these uncertainties are made certainties by faith in Christ and His keeping power within each belief.

 

Actually, I cannot comprehend how any Calvinist can truly know that he is saved to begin with. I mean, if you teach that you are absolutely unable to do anything to be saved and that God must regenerate you, how do you know when this happens?

On the other hand, those like myself who believe God can draw the unregenerate to Christ and convict their hearts, and then that unregenerate person can decide whether to trust Christ or not can absolutely know. I know I trusted Christ. I know I sincerely went to him in prayer and confessed I was a sinner worthy of hell and asked him to save me.

And I know I am saved because the word of God says so. My faith, my reliance is on the Word of God. Jesus said that he will not cast out any man that comes to him, the scriptures say that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. So I know I came to Jesus and called on him, and I know from the Word of God that I am saved.

There are so many problems with teaching that a person has to be regenerate to believe. For example, if you are regenerated for even one second of time before you believe, then you are a born-again person with everlasting life who is an unbeliever! Not only that, you are not justified, so you are a person with everlasting life who has not believed on Jesus and is still in your sins.

And don't say they don't teach this, I have quoted Calvinists who say a person can be regenerated for years before they actually trust Jesus. So you have a unbelieving filthy sinner with everlasting life!

That is almost obscene.

 

Some of the confusion comes from the fact that as there are different Calvinist views, 1 point 2 point 5 point 47 point -13 point, etc. There are differing views of Arminians The Classic Arminian a preached by most FW Baptist is that one loses the salvation by shipwrecking or forfieting their faith. This is not done by committing one sin, two sins, or 3 millions sins. Although sin does have a part, which is another discussion. There is also the Wesley-Arminian view held by Wesleyans, Nazarenes, CCCU, and others, that unconfessed sins will lose salvation. I can not explain it very well since I do not hold to the teaching.

As to your thoughts om one unbeleiving, that is what some have tried to explain here. If one who preached the Gospel, lead people to Christ, and bore much fruit, falls away, most Calinist say he was never a true believer while Arminians say he lost his faith. Calvinist say he could not fall away if it was real, while Arminians say he could not bear fruit if he were not. End result is the soul is lost, regardless of how you define it. I have no problem either way. I do have a problem with the Arminians who say that one sin seperated someone from God and I have a problem with the few Calvinist who say you can live in sin and still be a christian. I hope this makes sense, difficult to explain on a BB.

Love and God Bless,
Keith

 

The problem is that both Calvinist and Arminians are extreme. The answer is in the middle.

Both Calvinists and Arminians are relying on their works for assurance of salvation. The Calvinist says, "I am reading my bible, I am going to church, so I must be regenerate", The Arminian says, "I am reading my bible, I am going to church, so I must believe".

So, both are relying on works instead of simply trusting Jesus. To trust Jesus means to put your salvation in his hands, to cast yourself upon him and rely upon his faithfulness, not our faithfulness.

If you rely on your own faithfulness, sooner or later you are going to be dissappointed. You are going to fall in sin (we all do) and you are going to doubt that you are saved. Or else you are going to obsess over maintaining your works which is not only slavery, but torment indeed.

It is not like that. You have to realize that you cannot save yourself in any way and come to Jesus, casting yourself upon him. When you do, he gives you everlasting life. It cannot be reversed, you are born again, you are a new creation. And you cannot die, it is everlasting life. If you could lose it it wouldn't be everlasting.

I have been a Baptist for 45 years. Every church I have ever gone to has believed that the sinner has the ability and free will to choose Christ as the Arminians believe. But we do not believe that you can lose your salvation. It is a free gift you simply accept, and once you accept it you have everlasting life. You cannot die, you cannot lose it, it is Jesus himself who keeps you, not yourself.

The answer is in the middle.

 

Although I embrace Reformed Theology, I agree with a lot of your comment. My Baptist raising is similar to yours. It was not Calvinist, and definitely not Arminian. In my Baptist culture, Arminian was equated to works salvation and falling from grace. And even though they taught (and still teach) what you believe, they would not call themselves Free Will Baptists.

Although I believe that salvation is all of God from beginning to end, and I believe that eternal security is all of God and none of us, I do believe that one's salvation is not independent of means (the foolishness of preaching), nor independent of hearing the gospel, nor independent of repentance and faith.

I think where you and I see things differently is related to when and how one acquires the ability and the will to believe, as well as the basis of God's choice of his chosen.

I agree that one cannot save himself. I agree that we must see our sin as God sees it, be horrified by it, repent of it, and cast ourselves on Jesus and confess him as Lord. Only then, looking backward, can we understand that we were among the elect, chosen by God for salvation. And only then can we go to the scripture to find assurance that "he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him..."

 

I agree that salvation is not independent of means. Although I believe an unregenerate man has the ability to believe, he must have an object of faith. You cannot possibly believe in something you have never heard of and have no knowledge of.

And this is what Paul meant when he asked "and how shall they believe in whom they have not heard?" Isn't this why we send missionaries deep into the jungles? Not because those men have no ability to believe a truth when they hear it, but because they have never heard of Jesus Christ.

Paul never even remotely implies that a man has no ability to believe truth when he hears it, he says they must hear the Word of God, they must hear of Jesus before they can believe in him.

And this is the problem with believing a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. Having the ability to believe is not enough, you must also have an object of faith to believe in. This is knowledge.

I posted several times from R.C. Sproul's assistant where he said infants can be regenerated for years before they trust on Christ.

The problem here is that you would have a person who is born again, a person who has everlasting life that is not a believer. An infant cannot possibly trust in Jesus because they have no knowledge of him, and no ability to understand the gospel. So you have a born again unbeliever!

And we are justified by faith, even a Calvinist believes that. So, if an infant can be regenerated, then you not only have a person with everlasting life who is not a believer, but they are still in their sins!

Oh, the Calvinists will say that the moment you are regenerated you also have faith (but they will always insist regeneration occured first). You still have a major problem. It is not enough to have the ability to have faith. You must know the gospel. You must know and realize you are a sinner. You must know and realize that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead. This is absolutely impossible for an infant to know, and yet many Calvinists teach that an infant can be regenerated for many years before they acquire this knowledge to trust in Christ.

If so, then a person can be born again and have everlasting life when they are not a believer, and when they are in all their sins.

Do you see how this doctrine is absurd and totally unscriptural?

Here is a statement where it is shown some believe infants can be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Do you understand what this is saying? It is admitting that infants can not fully trust in Christ because they do not have knowlege to trust in Christ. Nevertheless, they teach that infants can be regenerated by the Holy Spirit and enabled to believe so that when they are mature enough and do hear the gospel years later will believe.

So, as I said, you would have a born again person with everlasting life who is not a believer and is still in all their sins.

 

I find the first problem comes with the wrong use of the word "salvation" itself. Salvation is a summary word containing a whole lot of bible truths of what God has done for the believer. Take regeneration for example, should anyone say I lost my regeneration? Or I am no longer a child of God, or the Holy Spirit is no longer sealing me till the day of redemption? It is easy to tag bad theology into a cliche such as "lost your salvation" when you take the word and use it in an untheological form. Otherwise what you might say salvation is something that has NOT happened at all but one day may occur, so what about all the rest of what God has done from which the word supposedly contains??

For your intest I was taught you could "lose your salvation" and eventually came to the conclusion that it made no sense in theory, that even a new convert would lose their salvation the same day if it was dependant on the believer to have to "keep it" themselves, or rely on their feelings or something they have to work at to keep or earn by trying to be really good...etc

Darren

 

The best way to answer a question is to relate to something that the one asking the question is familiar with. Since one who believes in eternal security asked the question, my answer is given as it relates to the same issue in eternal security. The answer is applicable to both the Arminian belief and the eternal security belief.

Eternal security Christians see an uncertainty in the Arminian belief concerning knowing that you will arrive in heaven one day. Arminians see an uncertainty in the eternal security belief in not knowing that one is a True Christian and arrive in heaven one day. The fact that most eternal security Christians will not acknowledge the uncertainty as seen by others, does not mean it is not there.

Since both beliefs have uncertainties as seen by others, the answer to the question is the same for both beliefs.

The question is- does Arminianism teach that you can KNOW that you will arrive in heaven one day? YES.

The question is- does the eternal secuirty doctrine teach that you can KNOW that you will arrive in heaven one day? YES.

If you cannot understand how the answer for Arminians is yes, then you should not be able to understand a yes answer for the Christians who believe in eternal security.

All of these uncertainties are made certainties by faith in Christ and His keeping power within each belief.

 

Excellent post, well-stated, and quite true. Tho it's a sidebar to the OP, thanks for clarifying it.

 

You have set forth some very interesting and thought provoking answers here drfuss.

 

That is the worst kind of comparison I have ever heard and again it illustrates my point how theological systems can become so unbiblical when it is presented in untheological terms.

Darren

 

From the first person subjective perspective you could argue the issue of uncertainty, that is, has that person or have I entered into the gospel by faith and recieved those promises? Yet from an objective absolute perspective of that the bible is true and authoritive, can a person arrive at the conclusion of assurance assuming that one is actually "in Christ" will that person in Christ recieve the promise of an eternity in heaven according to scripture with assurance or not? He that hath the Son hath life....

Darren