Can Catholics use artificial means of birth control?

Hath,
Have you read Mt 13,56 and Mk 6,3 in light of Mt 27,56; Mk 15,40 and Jn 19,25?

Why are those children considered as brothers of Jesus in the former Scriptures, said to be the children of another woman, also named Mary, and wife of Cleophas, in the latter two verses?

The NT word for cousin can be applied only to cousins. So if the writer is refering to a group of kinsmen, some of whom are not cousins, he would not use the word for cousins. He would then use the word that is translated brothers in our Bibles.
Pauline

[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

Of course Baptists aren't supposed to covet or be greedy but 90% of them do.

 

Pauline,
I'm 32 years old and have been sexually active since I was 17. If God intended for me to be pregnant, He had PLENTY of opportunities to do so. He gave us the technology to develop contraception so women can put their shoes back on and get out of the kitchen and have a life outside of a man. Sound radical to you? Well, how about the millions of people starving in African countries, a large percentage of them have HIV, but they keep on having children. Sounds like a good idea to you? Most of the children don't even make it to the age of 6, their parents are going to die SOON, but let's not give them any form of contraception to maybe help their situation. They've over-used the land, they cannot feed themselves let along their children, but Pope forbid, we explain how condoms work.
I have seen too many situations where children were brought into this world because it was "the thing to do", "their parents expected it of them", or the Church forbade them to make up their own minds where their bodies are concerned. Children are a wonderful thing for those who are able and willing to have them. For those who are not, the child will undoubtedly suffer. YOu cannot deny this fact. As far as my marriage goes, I do not appreciate anyone whether it is you or the Pope telling me if it is valid. My husband and I have been together longer than a lot of people we know who DO have kids. Children should never be forced upon someone, especially large numbers of them. This in many cases will breed regret and resentment.
And by the way, how many children do you have and why aren't you producing more?

 

A nurse tells me it is quite alright to starve and de-hydrate someone to death so long as you keep them comfortable by putting petroleum jelly around their lips. These are all a consequence of the widespread use of contraception.

What????!!!


And, yes, God does not recognize as valid a marriage in which life (which belongs to Him Who is Life) is denied and even rejected and destroyed out of a desire for enjoyment of the marital relationship without the responsibility for children. Alot of this use of contraception comes from making gods of material possessions, comfort, pleasure and security.

I don't make gods out of anything except God and as far as comfort, pleasure and security? It's way up there on my list along with air, food, and water. I don't live in a cardboard box because God has blessed me with the above.

And, a further thought, at the final judgment, each of us will be judged on the consequences of our decisions and actions.
What if the baby who was going to find the cure for cancer was aborted? Or the baby who was going to bring the most souls to Jesus Christ? We reap the consequences of those choices while here on earth, and we face judgment for the consequences of them in eternity. And we are responsible to study out a subject this important until we know the truth about it.

God knows exactly what I'm doing and if he feels I am ready or fit to be a parent, he will bless me with a child. Until then, I'm sure he is doling out all of the child-geniuses to the parents who are willing and waiting to raise them. I will continue helping his other creatures in the best way I know how for His Glory.

Pauline

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]

 

wishtolearn,
There is always the danger that we humans will try to make God over in our own image. Then we have a comfortable god who rubber-stamps what we want to believe and do. But our Triune God has His own standards and created us to live by them. The Church and I can only give you the truth. We cannot be responsible for you accepting that truth. The popes have given you the truth of God, I've passed it on to you. You can check it out for yourself by reading the work of reliable people such as Dr. Janet Smith, Dr. Nathanson, etc.

Each of us has to decide, as did Adam and Eve -- what counts most with us: God's will or our own. Sometimes the Christian Faith costs us something in obedience to God. But God, who is Truth and Life, does know what is best for us humans. And our true and lasting happiness is in doing His will.

You don't want contraception to be the cause of the breakdown of the family in our society and of all the others sinful ills that have followed on that. But any honest look at society before the widespread use of contraception will show you families were much, much more stable before that. Of course, there was still sin among humans. Always has been. But overall, men treated women with more respect, people treated the elderly and ill with more respect. Murder of the innocence and unfortunate certainly was not approved by a large number in society as it is today. The pope has said we are at a crossroads. We Christians are either going to evangelize the world with God's truth or society will cave in to barbarianism. You and I are making choices as to where we'll serve in this situation.

I hope you are not taking and will not take Eucharist in a Catholic Church unless you settle the issue of accepting the truth as taught by the Church.

Pauline

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

wishtolearn,
Concerning women and their abilities: My grandmother had eleven children, nine of which lived. She was a school teacher, studied law, helped with the family business, bought and sold property, fixed up houses to improve their value upon sale,
was widely read, used both her writing and musical talents and had a good sense of humor. And all of this in those days when women were supposedly so down-trodden and unable to get out of the kitchen. Raising a family did not take away from her being able to live life and use her talents to the full.

Pauline

 

ventin,
It is certainly not necessary for a bishop to be married. Jesus spoke of those who could make themselves eunuchs for God's sake. St. Paul wrote about staying single so as to be able to concentrate fully on serving God.

So the celibate life is the better calling for priests and bishops. However, not all can follow that calling. Therefore, in earlier times and in certain rites of the Church today, priests are allowed to be married but only once. I do not know if any of the Catholic rites still allow bishops to be married. I think not.

This is a discipline. It can be changed. Personally, I consider the Church very wise in calling bishops and priests to celibacy in the Latin Rite. Think of our faithful Catholic bishops in China who have spent thirty or so years in prison. Consider how that situation would have gone if they'd had wives and children.

Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
wishtolearn,
There is always the danger that we humans will try to make God over in our own image. Then we have a comfortable god who rubber-stamps what we want to believe and do. But our Triune God has His own standards and created us to live by them. The Church and I can only give you the truth. We cannot be responsible for you accepting that truth. The popes have given you the truth of God, I've passed it on to you. You can check it out for yourself by reading the work of reliable people such as Dr. Janet Smith, Dr. Nathanson, etc.

Each of us has to decide, as did Adam and Eve -- what counts most with us: God's will or our own. Sometimes the Christian Faith costs us something in obedience to God. But God, who is Truth and Life, does know what is best for us humans. And our true and lasting happiness is in doing His will.

You don't want contraception to be the cause of the breakdown of the family in our society and of all the others sinful ills that have followed on that. But any honest look at society before the widespread use of contraception will show you families were much, much more stable before that. Of course, there was still sin among humans. Always has been. But overall, men treated women with more respect, people treated the elderly and ill with more respect. Murder of the innocence and unfortunate certainly was not approved by a large number in society as it is today. The pope has said we are at a crossroads. We Christians are either going to evangelize the world with God's truth or society will cave in to barbarianism. You and I are making choices as to where we'll serve in this situation.

I hope you are not taking and will not take Eucharist in a Catholic Church unless you settle the issue of accepting the truth as taught by the Church.

Pauline

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Pauline ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know pauline, every religion claims to have "The Truth". Ask any one of them. The Church is not infallable, is not without it's stains on history. As far as taking the Eucharist in Church: A. I don't need to eat the funny tasting wafer in order to get closer or have a relationship with Christ and B. I'll stick to what I'm doing rather than become a broodmare or give up my sex life which by the way was given to me by God. He has shown me in countless ways that he is pleased with me and as far as allowing His Will in my life, I pray to Him everyday to accept it rather than go on with my occasional whims.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:


This is a discipline. It can be changed. Personally, I consider the Church very wise in calling bishops and priests to celibacy in the Latin Rite. Think of our faithful Catholic bishops in China who have spent thirty or so years in prison. Consider how that situation would have gone if they'd had wives and children.

Pauline[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This sounds more like a political problem on China's hands rather than whether or not priests should be celibate. And Pauline, you did not answer my question about how many children you have had and you didn't address my issues about the crisis in Africa and how the Church is handling that fiasco. And as far as your grandmother is concerned, sounds like she had her plate pretty full and handled it quite well. As far as a modern woman having 11 children these days, well considering the cost of child care for 1 child I can only imagine what 2+ would be like, but then we'd have to stay home and take care of them ourselves because it would be just too expensive. If everyone thought that, there would be no women in the workforce now would there? Did your grandmother live on a farm where the kids did most of the labor? Mine did and that is why they had so many kids, worked out for them but is not feasible for everyone. My name is not Rose Kennedy.

 

UN admits it was wrong about overpopulation
Vatican (CWN) -- In an unprecedented admission, the United Nations Population Fund has acknowledged that its previous frightening predictions about a "population bomb" have been inaccurate. And the organization has also acknowledged that its latest estimates have also exaggerated the growth of world population.

In 1994, the Population Fund estimated that worldwide population growth would be approximately 94 million each year, until easing back to 85 million around the year 2020. But last year, world population growth amounted to only 81 million-- 20 percent below the UN estimate. In 1989, the Population Fund predicted that by the year 2000 the world's population would be 6.25 billion; the latest figures suggest that that estimate is high by at least 160 million-- a figure roughly equivalent to the population of Brazil!

The latest statistics, published this week by the UN, demonstrate that Pope John Paul II and his allies were correct when they said, in preparation for the Cairo conference on population growth, that international agencies were grossly exaggerating the trends in world population.

[Reproduced with permission of the Editor.] www.catholic-pages.com/gr...lation.asp


God Bless

 

wishtolearn,
Is Jesus Christ God? Yes, He is. Did He establish a Church? Yes, He did. Did He promise to be with that Church through all the ages (Mt 28,19-20) and that the gates of hell would never prevail against that Church
(Mt 16,18)? Yes and He has kept His promise.

Do the sins of the representatives of a religion make the doctrines of that religion in error. No, they do not. Jesus didn't promise to make the representatives of His Church impeccable. He did send the apostles out to teach and to administer the sacraments (Mt 28,19-20). And He has kept His promise in regard to the dogmas and the sacraments of the Church. Is that Church infallible in her official, public teaching meant for all the faithful worldwide? Yes, she is, because God has promised it would be so and because He has kept His promise.

Is famine caused by overpopulation? No, it is not. A famous writer who was very concerned about overpopulation set out to write a book on it in regard to famine. To her surprise, famine is generally caused by political situations. And in one case by certain business-related decisions.

Condoms don't solve the problems. In far too many cases, they are unreliable in preventing pregancy and they are even less effective in preventing Aids. The young people in our country are being led to think condoms will protect them and that's a lie. One which may, in many cases, cost lives. In one case, condoms were shipped to another country that were of an inferior quality. So they were even less reliable. Money and greed are ruling too many times instead of genuine concern for people. Fortunately, there's a move now in many schools to tell the young people the truth, that condoms can not be relied upon to protect them.

Pauline

 

Wanted: more Russian babies to rescue a fast dying nation

Amelia Gentleman in Moscow reports on a critical decline in population from harsh living standards and poor medical services - prompting extreme nationalists to advocate polygamy

Sunday December 31, 2000

Russia's eccentric ultra-nationalist politician, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, has come up with a novel solution to the country's demographic crisis - polygamy.
The leader of the extreme-right Liberal Democratic Party recently proposed that the family code be amended to allow men to take up to five wives. More wives, according to his logic, would mean more babies, and thus boost the shrinking population.

After a brief debate in Parliament, his scheme was dismissed as inappropriate. But as the government takes stock of its challenges for the new year, attention will be concentrated on finding less idiosyncratic answers to a problem likely to worsen over the next decade,
threatening the economic recovery and development of Russia.

While a young, energetic workforce is needed to revitalise struggling industry, agriculture and businesses, Russians are dying out faster than at any time since the Second World War, according to statistics released this month. The population has shrunk by 3.3 million since the Soviet
Union's collapse to about 145 million - an unprecedented decline for an industrialised nation in peacetime. The State Statistics Committee, Goskomstat, forecasts the population will fall by a further 11 million
over the next 15 years. More pessimistic analysts - including President Vladimir Putin - suggest it could drop to 123 million by 2015.

'If you believe the forecasts, made by serious people who have devoted their whole lives to studying this question, in 15 years' time there could be 22 million fewer Russians. Just think about that figure - it's a seventh of the country's population,' Putin warned recently.

In the first 10 months of this year alone, the nation lost 550,600 people - as if a small regional capital had been obliterated.

The phenomenon has been named the 'Russian Cross' by demographers - a reference to a soaring mortality rate set on a graph against a plummeting birth rate.

The shorter lifespan is partly the product of a health service in crisis - the disappearance of universal free access to high-quality health care, the collapse of national immunisation programmes and the dire funding
problems in regional clinics.

Sociologists cite worsening living standards and stresses prompted by a decade of transition and economic depression as key causes of premature death in men. The stresses have led to chronic abuse of vodka and cigarettes, the main killers of Russian males.

Russia's birth rate has done nothing to compensate for the dying population. Women are now expected to bear 1.17 children, down from 1.89 in 1990. Pregnancy and childbirth is 10 times more dangerous than it is in Germany.

With around a third of the population living below the official poverty line (receiving monthly salaries that are under the official subsistence level of £30 a month), women are very conscious of the expense of rearing children, and many choose to delay giving birth or opt against it
completely.

Two pregnancies are terminated for every child born, with abortion remaining a key form of birth control. Infant mortality has improved, but last year it was still 15.8 deaths per 1,000 births, far higher than the US's 6.9 per 1,000.

Anatoly Sudoplatov, of the demographics faculty at Moscow University, said depopulation would have a profound impact on the economy. 'These demographic trends block any attempt to raise the standard of living in Russia, because the government has to allocate such large sums of money
to look after an ageing and sick population,' he said.
www.observer.co.uk/intern...41,00.html

 

Germans urged to have more babies
By Hannah Cleaver

Christian Social
Union [in German]

Die Welt
THE Bavarian premier has called on Germans to produce more babies, breaking a national taboo on the phrase "population policy", widely associated
with the Nazi era.

Edmund Stoiber, leader of the Right-of-centre Christian Social Union, the sister party to Germany's opposition Christian Democrat Union, said the word Bevölkerungspolitik (population policy), used by Hitler to encourage the production of blond, blue-eyed babies, must be stripped of its stigma.

"We have too few children," he told Die Welt newspaper. The Nazis had abused the idea of expanding the population as an instrument of power. "But for me it is not about having as big a German population as possible to utdo other countries."

He gave warning of a demographic crisis for state pensions, caused by a low birth rate and an ageing population, and of other worrying consequences "for our social network". Government statistics suggest that Germany's current
population of 82 million will fall by 17 million within half a century. This has forced the country to import skilled labour from abroad.

Mr Stoiber said an increase in immigration could ease the problem, but not solve it. "The level of immigration must be limited by the ability to integrate immigrants. Because of that it cannot be about increased immigration, but only about better administration."

He proposed a set of official measures to reverse the population decline, including financial support and tax breaks. But he said the main change must be made in people's attitudes towards children.

"We must make it the central point of our work. It is not just about money, it is about heads and hearts. When a young mother - like my daughter with her one-year-old son - goes to Italy and says she found it more child-friendly than
here, something has gone wrong here."

God Bless

 

Disciple,
Thank you for your informative posts.

I know some people who would react to your posts by saying, "Well, with not enough children and too many old people, the solution is to kill off the old people. I remember one younger man more or less saying that. He said, "Well, we can't support them."

And so, the moral climate slides further into evil -- because man tries to solve the problems his way and not his Creator's way.

One of my prayers is that the faithful Christians on this board will become informed and begin to do all they can to turn around this situation in God's way.

Pauline

 

Pauline,
Pleasee explain to me how contraception is responsible for the death of the elderly? My husband has had a vasectomy yet I do not believe in human euthanazia. How are they connected? I'd like to know.And if this is happening why aren't we hearing more about it?

 

http://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/2000/20000328_reith.html

Please refer to the above link for further information. I hope I cut/paste this properly. Pauline, you still didn't tell us how many children you have.

 

wishtolearn,
Interesting article! It says many necessary things. WHO's emphasis on helping locals find local solutions for their own health problems is good. I'm a herbalist and respect WHO's research on various herbs.

Improved health/living conditions has to be a priority in helping people. And there has to be development, improved labor standards and poverty reduction. Good health is an important concern and a key to economic growth. Pope John Paul II has been calling on rich countries to help poorer ones. It is certainly Catholic to help others. Catholic Relief Services is at or near the top in per cent of monies that go directly to help the needy. And the poor get help regardless of race, religion, etc.

There are Catholic organizations that help people with development so they can become self-supporting. We believe in doing much that this writer says needs done. Catholics give millions of dollars annually to help the needy and try to do so in wise ways.

But the writer puts in "respect for women's reproductive rights" and "...the role of the State becomes clearer. Empower people to make meaningful choices." All too often "empower the people" means to coerce them by the agenda of the ones providing the money or services. There are too many horror tales of women are being pressured to contracept, be sterilized or abort against their own will in order to get help for their families. That's not "empowering" people.

Pope Paul VI warned that governments would use contraception for their own agendas. His prediction has come to pass. The "role of the State" can be a disaster unless that state is operating for the common good. That's where we Christians need to take a more active role to encourage our nation to work for the common good, and put pressure to do the same on other countries.

Contraception is not part of the common good.

Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
wishtolearn,
I'm a herbalist and respect WHO's research on various herbs.

Do you know where I can get loose lavender for a good price?

Improved health/living conditions has to be Catholic Relief Services is at or near the top in per cent of monies that go directly to help the needy. And the poor get help regardless of race, religion, etc.

There are Catholic organizations that help people with development so they can become self-supporting. We believe in doing much that this writer says needs done. Catholics give millions of dollars annually to help the needy and try to do so in wise ways.

But the writer puts in "respect for women's reproductive rights" and "...the role of the State becomes clearer. Empower people to make meaningful choices." All too often "empower the people" means to coerce them by the agenda of the ones providing the money or services.

My point exactly.

Pope Paul VI warned that governments would use contraception for their own agendas. His prediction has come to pass. The "role of the State" can be a disaster unless that state is operating for the common good. That's where we Christians need to take a more active role to encourage our nation to work for the common good, and put pressure to do the same on other countries.

Contraception is not part of the common good.

Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Contraception when used properly is not for cultural genocide, it is for responsible adults who are sexually active. Planning a family that will stay together takes more than two consenting adults who just happen to go to church. You will never be able to stop people from having sex. We are programmed to do it. That is why you hear about priests who are either abusing children, are gay to begin with or are having affairs with either nuns or housekeepers or whomever. Please don't act like this is the first time you've heard of this. My family has been Catholic for generations and have personally known many priests. Back to contraception. Education and elimination of fear and misunderstanding about sex is what the church should concentrate on handing out, not taboos. We are human beings and try as we might, we will not be able to break that.

 

wishtolearn,
Re: the connection between contraception and the death of the elderly, i.e. euthanasia":

It's all about our values: Widespread use of contraception brought about a change in how people value marriage, babies, responsibility, what constitutes a valuable human being and life in general. Look in magazines: sex is for pleasure without added responsibility for a family. Let's all stay young and fun-loving and free!!! All this has affected how we see ourselves, others, age, and disability.

It began showing up in books and articles years ago. If someone isn't productive, he shouldn't receive medical treatment. At first it was a discussion of what major medical services he shouldn't receive. But then it progressed. Now in Oregon, you can get medical assistance money to help you die but not for some of the life-giving procedures. Workers in the medical field now are being taught about helping people die, as I related about the smearing of petroleum jelly around the lips while killing them by withholding food and water. One nurse told me that to die this way is a horrible death.

You aren't hearing more about it because the media slants their info. If I remember the figure correctly, 31 countries are now in trouble due to reduced population problems. Have you heard about that? Have you heard about the traumatizing effects of abortion on women who have them? Have you heard about all the women injured or killed by legal abortions? Not from most of the media.

You have to find publications/organizations that will give you the facts. And study it out for yourself.

Pauline