CAN CHRISTIANS GO ON STRIKE?

None of those verse relate to labor unions at all.

 

I am really amazed at some of the statements in this thread. None of the Passages offered are a condemnation of organized labor.

I suggest that some of you read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. Perhaps this would be the working environment preferable to a "union shop." The book is in the public domain at Project Gutenberg, and this is the link.

 

I've taught the book, Rich. First of all, it was and is a tract for violent socialist revolution. Nice Christian concept.

Second of all, if you think that is anywhere near applicable to the US industrial situation today, you must not have worked in an industrial plant lately--or ever. I have. From 1992-96, after my retirement from the military, I was an executive in two plants, one union and one non-union. Because of federal workplace rules, NLRB, JTPA, OSHA, MMSHA, EPA, EEOC, EIEIO, etc., the non-union plant was just as safe and congenial as the union plant--and it was far more productive. The union at the unionized plant protected the lazy, the drunk, and the incompetent, and even the best workers never worked a full day at a productive pace. Employees who did a good job--including several Christians I know--would find their tool box filled with grease or their tires slashed. The company has announced the closing of that plant now, because their production costs are 25% higher than the company's non-union plant at another location. By the way, the non-union workers make as much as the union guys--they just have to work for it.

The passages show that the Bible assumes free enterprise and ownership, and requires the working Christian to put in a full day's work as if he were working for the Lord.

 

Here are a couple of nice passages from this wonderful Socialist tract.

Yeah, good Christian tract here...

Like I said, I've taught the book more than once.

Like I said, it is not applicable now. Except for the shock and awe that created the FDA, it was not applicable then. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

So, are you implying that these conditions were somehow fabricated, and the intent of the book was to deceive the public as to the true conditions of the industry?

Actually, yes I have, but thanks for implying otherwise with your condescending comments.

So, due to your experiences in the two plants in which you were an executive, you can unequivocally state that organized labor is a horrible thing. You are right: the eight-hour work day, laws against child labor, and workers compensation are contrary to Scripture, and should immediately be corrected. The demons in the labor movement must have caught us asleep at the wheel.

Again, perhaps you misunderstood me, so I will state my point in a different way: show us where organized labor is contrary to the Word of God.

 

Please show us where I referred to this as a "Christian tract."

 

Oh, and by the way, I've also read "The Iron Heel" by Jack London and lots of other Socialist horse manure. I was a leftist once. I grew out of it at about age 21.

Not that I am an apologist for the industrial elite either. The elites on both sides share a common disdain for us. The difference is that the Left's disdain is deeper, it challenges our moral foundations, it aims to control what we think, what we say, and what we teach our children, and since it is about control, it is far more dangerous than the wealthy oligarchists. They don't care what we think or believe as long as they can make money. That is why the real control freaks of the wealthy, Heinz-Kerry, Ted Turner, George Soros, etc., are leftists.

 

Show me where the Bible authorizes workers to organize and overthrow the leadership of their bosses and extort money from them, to include the hiring of excess workers that are not needed.

Show me where workers are allowed by the Bible to quit work AND keep others from working by violence and intimidation.

As for the Jungle, you recommended it.

 

No, I am sure it was fairly accurate 100 years ago. One Hundred years ago....

 

I never made these statements. It is not up to me to prove a thought that you have interjected.

That is also a statement that I did not make. Again, it is not up to me to prove a thought that you have interjected.

Indeed I did, but kindly show me where I referred to it as a "Christian tract."

 

I actually said nothing about those issues. They are settled in law now, and have been since long before you and I were born. Like the book you mentioned, this is all living in the past. Organized labor has served its purpose, but it continues on.


Those were not my only experiences in a union environment, by the way, just the ones where I was an executive. I grew up in a union household, and saw, as the son of an officer in the union, the transition from needed correction to ridiculous feather-bedding and other insults to good business sense. The Electrician can only wire up the motor, he can't remove or replace the four bolts that hold the cover on, that is the mechanic's job. The mechanic can't grease the machine, that is the oiler's job, etc.

I also dealt with government employee unions for 20 years, and they were, if anything, worse, just more subtle.

I am not trying to be condescending, just matter of fact.

 

I never made these statements. It is not up to me to prove a thought that you have interjected.

That is also a statement that I did not make. Again, it is not up to me to prove a thought that you have interjected.

Indeed I did, but kindly show me where I referred to it as a "Christian tract." </font>[/QUOTE]The subject of this thread involves strikes. I have seen a lot of them, in more than one industry--it is not interjecting a thought to attribute to unions the things I mentioned.

OK, you did not call "The Jungle" a Christian tract. On this Baptist board, in a discussion about the morality of a Christian participating in a strike, you recommended a Socialist tract to support your position, and a hundred year old Socialist tract at that. Is that a more accurate depiction?

 

Actually, I never said that you mentioned those issues. I did, and they are a result of the efforts by the American Federation of Labor. That, of course, is one of the predecessors to the AFL-CIO.

So, are you implying that the corporations can be trusted to take care of the workers? If so, then what are the examples of this? If not, then what should replace organized labor?

Are you implying that you have an issue with the specialization of labor? Isn't it the union's job to protect the workers' jobs?

So the three experiences you have prove that organized labor has "served" [past tense] its purpose?

Again, what is the replacement for the organized labor? I never stated that organized labor is perfect, I simply have not seen anyone else working for the America's Blue-Collar Workforce. Though not a blue-collar worker, I was raised to respect the hard-working men and women who perform these jobs, and have a strong belief that they deserve a decent wage, and a reasonable standard of living.

Of course, many industrial and manufacturing jobs have gone to other countries. The unions couldn't stop the corporations from moving offshore. I guess they didn't have the muscle to keep the work here in the USA.

Point taken. Re-read your post to me, and tell me how you would have perceived it.

You asked me to prove several statements that I did not make.

No, read my post again.

I suggested that the reader check out the book and provided the link to Project Gutenberg. The reader can decide for himself/herself as to whether or not this would be a better working environment.

 

Please, think here for a minute. This is a total straw man. These conditions no doubt exist in the third world, but not here. As far as the government protections go--you know good and well that government agencies have a half life of about 1,000 years--they are not going away.

 

Ah, so government is the answer?
Perhaps you are more of a socialist that you originally thought.......

Indeed, a straw man?

Do these third-world countries have organized labor?

According to your previous post, government is the answer. I must have misunderstood you, as I thought you abhorred socialism.

 

Government is not the answer, but they are here. And, among the few things government can do well, referee is one of them.

Now that I've gotten you totally awake and stimulated, I must trundle off to bed. I must go and teach school in Mayberry RFD (Hickman County High School) tomorrow.

If I offended you, please forgive me--my gift for direct speech and ironic statements sometimes gets out of hand. A Russian friend told me that I would have made a great Russian novelist if I were Russian. I never could figure if Sasha was complimenting me or not...Russian Irony again!

Remember Rich, the manager at The Buckle at the Short Pump center knows me well...

 

For the record, I never took any offense. On the contrary, I have very much enjoyed jousting with you. Hopefully, with any luck, we have caused some among us to think about the subject.

And yes, I remember you and your "connections" at the Short Pump Town Center. You have a standing invitation to look me up whenever you are in town to visit that manager.

May God shower you and that "manager" with His Blessings.

BiR

 

One last shot--Baptists THINK?

Surely not....

 

I edited my reply - be sure to read it again.