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Can God Discipline a Believer for Sin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007.

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  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    It has been stated that God disciplines His children for sin, but that no sin in the believer's life can separate him from God. It is also been stated that God forgives us for all past present and future sins and that all of them were paid for 'in full' on the cross.

    God states that when He forgives us of sin that He remembers it of us no more. Does this make a liar out of God if He disciplines a believer for something He has promised never to be remembered again?
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    The obvious answer is that God is not a liar, and the fact that God can discipline a believer for sin is not in conflict with His promise to forgive us for our sin. We need to understand that being eternally forgiven doesn't excuse us from reaping what we sow. The teaching that Christians will have no accountability for sin has born the predictable fruits. We need to have a proper fear of God.
     
    #2 James_Newman, Jan 30, 2007
  3. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I think a lot of people mix up atonement with forgiveness. All sins were legally paid for on the cross. Jesus ATONED for them all.

    But that is a legal thing.

    Forgiveness is a personal thing. That is why John states in his first letter that when we sin we can repent and confess and God is faithful to forgive. In other words, not all sin is forgiven. Christ specifically states there is one sin which CANNOT be forgiven.

    So yes, we are disciplined. It is not a matter of punishment, though, but a matter of correction and setting us straight. It can feel like punishment when we reap some natural consequences of what we did, but that is not the same as either punishment or God's special discipline either!

    God does not deal with the sin nearly as much as with the character of the person who has sinned. In that sense, for a believer, the sins truly are cast away. But the transformation of the character continues. And discipline is part of that.
     
    #3 Helen, Jan 30, 2007
  4. PJ

    PJ Active Member
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    Did your earthly father discipline you when you went against his will? Mine did. So does our Heavenly Father discipline us when we go against His will.

    God a liar?? :eek:
    WOWSERS! :tonofbricks:
     
    #4 PJ, Jan 30, 2007
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If a child scratches their name into their neighbors car, doesn't the childs father both atone and discipline the child? The parent has to pay for the damage, as the child can't pay $1000, but the parent also punishes the child. It's not one or the other. We can never pay for our sin, it costs too much. Only Christ can. We can be punished, though.
     
    #5 webdog, Jan 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2007
  6. grahame

    grahame New Member

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    I think that Helen understands the doctrine of justification by faith very clearly. I wonder why so many others on this forum have so much difficulty in believing something so simple? :BangHead: They seem to want to prove to God and themselves that somehow they are good people. Well what happens to these same people who suddenly fall into grievous sin? It happened to saints in the Old Testament and it has happened to many Christians through history. But if you believe these people who do not believe in justification by faith, then there is no hope for Christians who happen to sin.
     
    #6 grahame, Jan 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2007
  7. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    Discipline and correction are not punishment. Discipline and correction are meant to change our behavior, to change us, to correct that which is faulty in us.
     
    #7 donnA, Jan 30, 2007
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: In this we all agree. Still yet, you are not addressing the OP. The question is, can God discipline a believer without being seen as inconsistent, for if He forgives all future sin at the cross and promises when He forgives not to remember any of them ever again, how could He then break that promise by not only remembering our sins but disciplining us for something He has promised to forget?
     
    #8 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Did He promise to forgive us of them and to never remember them again?



    HP: I am not addressing the unpardonable sin. My question has to do with the believer. Are all our sins paid fro and forgiven or not? You cannot say ye, but no when it comes to the believer. Which is it?




    HP: No one said discipline was a matter of punishment. That is not a question raised in the OP. How can God discipline for sins that He promised never to remember? That is the question. Would not it be logical that if God was going to discipline us for a specific sin that He would first have to dig them up out of the sea of promised forgetfulness, having bought and paid for ALL sins that are past, present and future, and bring them back from the east and west, from as far as He said He removed our transgressions from us?
     
    #9 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  10. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I would say that on an appointed day, God will remember our sins no more. Until that day, we have an obligation to confess our sins to God in order to receive forgivness before appearing at the judgment seat of Christ.
     
    #10 James_Newman, Jan 30, 2007
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Where have you been? Why should asking if God is a liar shock anyone?? I cannot tell you how many times, even on this list, it has been raised as a legitimate question from the Calvinists represented here in relationship to Arminians and others not believing that God lieterally paid for all future sins? You know the scenario. “God said He forgave us of ALL our sins!! If you don’t believe that, are you calling God a liar?” etc. etc.

    Relax PJ. I have been taking lessons on how to approach these issues from many on this list. It’s just fair play and done in the spirit of finding truth.:thumbs:

    You miss the whole issue of the OP. The question once again surrounds the fact that God promised NEVER to remember our sins once forgiven. If they were forgiven on the cross with a literal payment, and He promised once forgiven NEVER to bring them up again, how could He then remember them in order to discipline us without going back on His Word?
     
    #11 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Sorry Webdog. Re-read the OP. You are not addressing the question:)
     
    #12 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: This is not a philosophical debate on justification. Re-read the OP. It isn’t that hard to comprehend. See if you can answer the question that is raised. I have faith in you Grahame:thumbs:
     
    #13 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: The question is not whether or not discipline is punishment, but can God bring something back up that He promises never to remember? Re-read the OP. :)
     
    #14 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: So He really did not mean He has REALLY forgot, just possibly a slight case of reversible amnesia?

    So how often would you prescribe that we re-confess our sins that we thought were forgiven and forgotten , but really are not in this world? Are you sure you desire to hold this position? The numerous logical consequences of this do not set well with Scripture. :eek:
     
    #15 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  16. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Why don't you show me the logical consequences and then I will decide.
     
    #16 James_Newman, Jan 30, 2007
  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Remember our sins no more is an expression meaning our sins are forgiven. Can God actually forget anything in the literal sense? When we use the expression "forgive and forget" do we literally forget? No. It means that we will not bring it up again. When God forgives us for a sin, He does not bring it up against us again. However, that doesn't mean that He shouldn't discipline us. Webdog gave a good illustration. The father in his story forgave his son and won't bring up the transgression again, but the child still received punishment to deter him from doing it again.
     
    #17 Amy.G, Jan 30, 2007
  18. SBCPreacher

    SBCPreacher Active Member
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    You are correct in saying that our sin is paid in full at the cross, but that does not lessen God's responsibility to His children to provide corrction when we need it.

    God, the perfect Father, disciplines His children for their disobedience. If the disobedience is sin, then, yes, He disciplines Believers for their sin.

    Now, our disobdience damages our fellowship with our Father, and brings about discipline, but it does not sever the relationship we have with our Father. He is still our Father.

    Keep in mind that sin often brings about consequences, and these may not necessarily be God's discipline in our lives.

    As for God lying - can't happen. Where it might appear that He lied is obviously a problem with our misunderstanding His word. God cannot, and will not lie.
     
    #18 SBCPreacher, Jan 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2007
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP:
    • Ps 103:12 “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.” Either He forgave all sins at the cross when He paid for them , and forgets and never brings them up again, or the east and the west are not as far apart as it might seem (I am approaching this from the perspective of one that believes in the literal payment theory)
    • 1Jo 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” If we need to keep confessing for sins that are forgiven as you suggest, it would be as to say to God, “I really don’t believe you have forgiven me for my sins or I do not believe I can be sure they are under the blood and forgiven until the judgment seat of Christ.”

    How’s that for starters?
     
    #19 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: So it wasn’t all finished on the cross after all? If He does not bring it up again, how can you say but He actually does in the form of punishment in discipline? Maybe we help God pay for sins through our discipline?
     
    #20 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 30, 2007
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