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Can Jesus Cast Out Saved Believers?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hark, Mar 12, 2021.

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  1. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Read the scripture in the second post following the OP in this thread. Ask Jesus to help you understand His words.
     
  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
    ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

    Hark,
    There are "wheat" and there are "tares".
    "Wheat" and "tares" look alike when they are both young...

    But as time passes and fruit comes forth, the tares will be shown for who they really are.

    So it is with believers who abide, and "believers" who "abide".
    One will endure, the other will fall away.

    One will bear fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 )...30, 60, and even 100-fold, one will not.
    There is much in God's word that is not only directed at His sheep, but at all who profess to know Him.

    I agree.
    Anyone who is cast forth is not saved, and was done so in the same way and for the same reason as those found in Matthew 25:31-46;
    Because they are not His sheep.
     
    #22 Dave G, Mar 12, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Hark,
    Believers who do not continue in the faith are called, "unbelievers".

    They were never born again, did not experience a genuine change of heart, and were never His.
    He will tell them in all honesty, "I never knew you".
    Read the parables of the sower and tares, and their corresponding explanations in Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8.
    Those who abide, do so because He "abides" them ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).

    The answer to your OP is "No."
    He does not cast out His sheep ( John 6:37 ).

    But He will cast out those who think that they are His sheep and are instead "goats" who were never born again and who never truly believed.
     
    #23 Dave G, Mar 12, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    If you believe people can lose their salvation, you cannot be saved. Why? Because we are saved by having faith God saved us.
     
  5. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    First off, I thank the Father in Jesus's name for your response as I did pray for His word to have free course.

    I am glad that you see Matthew 7:13-27 as directed to saved believers as this apostasy is rampant in churches today.

    There are several usage for wheat & tares or just the tares that may be applied and one is towards what we build on that foundation. Tares in the parable of the sower is such an example in that the cares of the world chokes the word in preventing fruitfulness as Jesus did bother to explain the parable to His disciples in Matthew 13:16-23.

    Then we see in another parable of the kingdom of heaven for which you had referenced regarding the enemy sowing tares in his kingdom of heaven in Matthew 13:24-30 but I point out this reaping is the pre great tribulation rapture event for how He gathers the sheep that followed His voice into the barn as those cast out, are left behind to face the fire coming on the earth & the following great tribulation as a result.

    The wheat are His disciples abiding in Him are in the barn ( Marriage Supper ) from the tares that are not, but still saved. The reason I discern this is because of how the shepherd will leave the sheep to find that which is lost or have gone astray in Matthew 18:10-17. Note verse 17 regarding excommunication but keep in mind what He has said in verses 10-14 because His words applied to getting those left behind.

    When you consider how excommunication is to serve the unrepentant believer in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 in saving his spirit as he is given unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh *( physical death per 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 & Revelation 2:21-23 ) and yet the spirit is saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15, then you can understand the tares are works that deny Him on that foundation in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 as there are more ways to deny Him than verbally denying Him per Titus 1:15-16 as this ties to Matthew 7:21-23 as they were denied for being workers of iniquity..

    For the parable of the sower, you should discern with Him how only one did not receive the seed hence unbelievers and the one that did not become fruitful are saved believers from the one that were fruitful as His disciples... because..

    You have to wonder if your application is saying that discipleship or running that race is to obtain salvation by without realizing it, thus a system of works is implied for salvation through discipleship, but discipleship is about how to be fruitful as His disciples by abiding in His words so that their joy may be full in living this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ. John 15:1-8

    There be those who are Christ the firstfruits & they that be Christ's at His coming. There be those who are the great in the kingdom of heaven from those that are least per Matthew 5:19 There be vessels unto honor in His House and there be vessels unto dishonor in His House as the ones that depart from iniquity with His help & by His grace, shall be received by Him as vessels unto honor. There be the fold that did not follow His voice but a stranger's voice per John 10:1-5 but He still must bring them per John 10:16 as they shall be of the one fold & one shepherd serving Him as King of kings.

    Granted one has to discern how Matthew 25:41 is being used and at what time. Is this the Great White Throne Judgment or is this how He will judge those that did not have the mark of the beast for when He sends those with the mark of the beast into the lake of fire ahead of time of Satan & his angels per Revelation 19:19-21 which event is before or at the same time Satan is cast into a pit for a thousand years per Revelation 20:1-6?

    Obviously those with the mark of the beast that served Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and so it goes to discernment whether that is how He will judge those people by how they treated His saints during the great tribulation for how some will enter into His kingdom from those that will not..... that did not have the mark of the beast yet or this is directed towards the Great White Throne Judgment.

    Discerning Matthew 25:31-35 leads me to believe this is when He comes and sits as King of kings.in judging who enters His millennium reign and who does not from among the living that survived in coming through the great tribulation.

    Since it is a prophetic judgment, discernment is needed but I believe this is what the Lord would have me believe for why it does not apply to saved believers at the rapture event. Indeed, if you note, Matthew 25:31-46 was judging how unbelievers treated His saints as they were judged by their works in how they had treated His saints, even the least of the saints which they were as saints that were left behind.

    I am open to correction by Him thru others but I believe He has led me to apply all guideposts in that reference to that discernment.

    Thank you again for replying, brother. may God cause the increase in His iron sharpening iron for us to bear more fruit.
     
  6. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    He only says that because He had warned his disciples that if they deny Him verbally, He will deny them verbally. BUT this is professing believers that are workers of iniquity and not verbally denying Him, but by their works of iniquity is how they are denying Him per Titus 1:15-16 BUT even if they stop believing in Him, He sill abides per 2 Timothy 2:11-13. If you doubt 2 Timothy 2:13, Paul gave an example of one kind of former believers and yet he said nevertheless... which to me is saying that foundation cannot be removed as it shall stand having His seal of adoption for why the call to depart from iniquity even goes out to former believers.

    There is a problem with your application then when you read 2 Timothy 2:11-13 as that is one of the faithful sayings in the N.T.

    2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    Would you say those caught in the snare of the devil are abiding in Him? And yet Paul is saying we are to reach out to them in ministry on the chance that God is peradventuring to "recover" some from the snare of the devil.

    2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    Not cast out of His kingdom of Heaven but then you have to discern how the least are still in His kingdom being what they are for how they are in Matthew 5:19 and how vessels unto dishonor are those that did not depart from iniquity & yet still in His House per 2 Timothy 2:18-21.. even former believers.

    What makes a vessel unto dishonor a vessel unto dishonor but still be in His House? The same way the least are still n the kingdom of heaven for doing what they had done.

    Have you ever sinned? Would you consider that as not abiding in Him at that moment? Has not Jesus taught us to pray to the Father to ask for forgiveness? Did not the apostle John clarified that we are not to sin but if we did, we have an Advocate? 1 John 2:1-2 Did not John address those who walked in darkness to repent & walk in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son for how His blood also cleanses us from sins and not just by confessing them to Him? 1 John 1:3-10

    Are you viewing discipleship or running that race as a means to obtain salvation by? If so, I can only pray He will lead you to discern this application of yours again since those left behind are still saved as the least in the kingdom of heaven and as the vessels unto dishonor that are still in His House. We can only live as His disciples as saved. we can only run that race as saved. We need him in us so we can look to Him daily to help us lay aside every weight & sin in following Him as His disciple all the way Home to the Marriage supper above which is to His glory for we are the works of His hands as the crowns are His crowning achievements in us as those crowns we wear glorifies Him & His workmanship perfected by Him in us in Heaven..
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    For the record, my view again, I hold the view everyone starts out in the vine prior to abiding in Christ. By reason Christ is the true vine because is the atonement for the whole world per 1 John 2:2. I understand not all believers will agree with this, point view as I explained. How are little children to young to repent and believe to be supposedly to be even placed in the vine? Those removed according to John 15:6 are understood by many to perish.
     
  8. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    And yet scripture says otherwise.

    Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    Matthew 11;25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    You may have a hard time defending this view when it can be seen that discipleship or running that race is for obtaining salvation and thus works is necessary by continuing to abide in Him to be saved per your application.

    So discernment is needed here as well in hw the scripture is to be applied without opposing the other scripture..

    Those who get left behind will perish when that fire comes on the earth, but as they incur a physical death, their spirit are still saved.

    1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    It is that day of judgment for when believers are left behind when Jesus sends that fire on earth on those saints for not being ready in Luke 12:40-49.

    Only the works are burned off of that foundation as that foundation remains forever as laid by Christ Jesus. The spirit is still saved but that physical body shall be destroyed as death will come when Jesus sends that fire on earth; Revelations 8:7 & 2 Peter 3:3-12.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Your understanding and my understanding of some same Scriptures are not the same. We disagree on understanding some Scriptures. I believe little children are safe in Christ should they die as little children. I also believe that those who come to faith in Christ and God saves, the same God keeps. John 10:26-28.
     
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  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Please add John 10:29
     
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  11. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    @AustinC

    John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    Again, only the Lord can show you by His words what applies to salvation and what applies to discipleship which is not about obtaining salvation but the firstfruits of the resurrection since not every saved believer will be ready in spite of His warnings to be ready or else..

    No one can run that race or be His disciple unless they are saved. With Him being in us as saved to be able to run which is to be done still by grace of God & by faith in Jesus Christ BUT as our Good Shepherd as we are to look to Him to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race for the high prize of our calling when the Bridegroom comes.
     
  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Hark,
    There is no such thing as a "wheat" that is disobedient at heart.

    God looks on the heart...a heart He has made pure by His own work.
    The "wheat" are His, and the "tares" were sown there by the enemy...
    It really is no more complicated than that.



    As for the underlined, there is no "pre-tribulation rapture event", Hark.
    I have no idea where you get that, as I don't see it anywhere in His word.
    While I agree that it is a popular teaching today, I know of no one who can establish it by anymore than a few "verses", and one that is often used is Revelation 3:10, which is spoken to the church at Philadelphia.
    He sends His angels to gather His elect as He is coming down, and that is after the tribulation of those days.

    See Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
     
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  13. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Care to explain 1 Corinthians 3:10-17? Look at the consequence for defiling the temple of God which is physical death in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 and yet the spirit is still saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15 in regards to that day when God judges His House by fire per 1 Corinthians 3:13.

    Explain how if the church do not repent, they will be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation per Revelation 2:18-25

    It is there.

    There is tribulation where false prophets have arisen in great numbers in the latter days we are living in..

    Then there is the great tribulation which occurs after the rapture event that if the church is not ready as found abiding in Him is why God will judge His House first at the rapture event per 1 Peter 4:17-19 as He is faithful to keep the souls of His saints that are left behind to suffer what is coming on the earth.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, God chooses the sheep and they are His. His sheep hear His voice. Moreso, they will never be plucked from His hand. These verses obliterate your contention.
     
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  15. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Except John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    In context of that chapter of how I discerned saved believers climbing up another way as led astray for following a stranger's voice; seeking another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues which is never interpreted & assumed for private use as they seek this from the Holy Spirit Himself which is climbing up another way.

    That is why Jesus keeps repeating that He is the door in how to approach God the Father by in worship, fellowship, and prayer in having the abundant life with God.to avoid the spirits of the antichrists ; the stranger's voice.

    Was not 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 prophesied? Did not Paul said it was happening in his day in 2 Thessalonians 2:7? Did not Paul testify to a damnation ( vessels unto dishonor ) for believing the lie for why God permitted that strong delusion to occur in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ? Did not Paul reminded them when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 in reminding the believers of the tradition taught of us; hence Jesus being the door in for this reproof towards that apostasy?

    Did not Paul commanded us to withdraw from them in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 and yet not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15?

    Then that is why Jesus must bring them because although left behind for being workers of iniquity, they are still our brothers and thus still saved, but shall be resurrected later on after the great tribulation as the least in the kingdom of heaven per Matthew 5:19 and as the vessels unto dishonor in His House that can never be that vessel unto honor in His House because once that door is closed to the Marriage Supper in Heaven, nobody else can have it after that; thus a damnation like the prodigal son who lost his inheritance for wild living and can never get it back but still son.

    That is how other scripture aligns with how I am applying John 10:16 for why it says He must bring them. even though they were not originally of the fold that followed His voice, but they will hear Him then as they shall be of the one fold & one shepherd.
     
  16. WAJungleMonkey

    WAJungleMonkey New Member

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    The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is Christ Himself, and thus, Heaven. There is no Heaven outside of Christ, the Lamb, upon whom we "eat." There are no separate privileges in Heaven for the "super-believers," but all who keep their faith in Christ receive the full inheritance as sons of God and a seat at the Table (this is elementary- need I quote a verse for you?).

    You quote Matthew 22:11-13, but do not see that the passage proves your theory wrong. Many are invited to the feast, but only those who show up to the feast without the wedding garments will be cast out into Hell (ie, "darkness" "weeping and gnashing of teeth"). Those who are bound and cast into the darkness are in hell. There is no darkness anywhere in the kingdom of Heaven for darkness cannot exist in the presence of the Divine Light (1 John 1:5).

    We see the same thing in the parable of the Prodigal (Luke 15:25-28). The elder son was invited of course, but his pride prevented him from joining the feast because he didn't think his brother deserved to be there. Instead, he sat outside in the darkness, sulking and overcome by his anger. It was torturous for him. No one is suffering in the Father's House.

    Look at the letters to the churches in Revelation- every single one of them ends with "to the one who conquers" and all are invited into the "feast" in Heaven and to rule with Christ.

    Brother, I mean this with the utmost love- these are elementary principles. If that is not clear to you, you have no business trying to teach others. What are you trying to justify in your own life?
     
  17. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    I do not want to be left behind, brother, and I am placing all my hopes in Him as my Good Shepherd to abide in Him & His words inn following Him. So I am not justifying any sinful living on earth. No.

    However, in regards to your application, please address Matthew 5:19 as it does seem to oppose it as if there is only one class of citizens in heaven

    Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    I believe the least become least as being left behind for why they are also known as vessels unto dishonor but yetthey are still in His House for failing to depart from iniquity per 2 Timothy 2:18-21 for why even former believers are called to depart from iniquity as well.
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    John 10:16 still obliterates your position.
    It's interesting that you cherry pick sentences from places to prop up a weird pretext you have created in your mind. Yet, if we ever looked at a passage in whole, your contention falls apart. John 10 is a perfect example.
     
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  19. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    Brother Hark, :)

    @Dave G gave you the biblical answer.

    It goes much deeper than what Dave mentioned with dozens and maybe hundreds of verses. If you have a pastor trained in the Word well, he will give you the same answer. I suggest you test everything coming from a message board as if it is mostly vomit. If you really want to grow in Christ, get in a good church, go to every teaching of the Word you get weekly (with small groups it should be at least a few times a week or something is up), study the Word on your own, and have long and productive chats with your pastor. Message boards are mostly about arguing what every individual person takes for granted. They are places to learn, but only once you have trained discernment and become grounded in the Word well. I grew up in the faith posting on Baptist Board, and I do not recommend anyone repeating what I did, because I did not have enough discernment to put everything I was talking about in context.

    I implore you to read 1 John from beginning to end. It lays out why those making a practice of sin without a new nature are doomed from a variety of angles. A new nature from being born again from above by the now indwelling Holy Spirit.

    @Dave G , you have a great summary of what 1 John teaches if you could repost it, that would be very helpful to Hark and me too.
     
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  20. WAJungleMonkey

    WAJungleMonkey New Member

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    I am glad to hear it!


    Matthew 5:
    There are those who are called "least" and "greatest," but that is not separating them according to classes, but levels of honor among equals.
    For example- read about the history of the early Church- the bishops/priests/pastors/etc were all equals with each other in the councils, which were conciliatory in nature. They reasoned together with Scripture and teachings of the Apostles to separate the True Faith among rising heresies.

    When the Bishop of Rome began claiming primacy over the rest of the bishops, the Church split, but it was not always that way. The Bishop of Rome was always considered a "first among equals." Certain ones had various "ranks" of honor for the sake of order, but they were all equal in their standing in Christ.

    ...But I don't want to get into Church history/politics too much... and I am not Catholic... I am just using that as an example.

    Galatians 3:28-29, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

    Please take your time reading this because it might seem deep. I am adding color and bold print to help break things up- not yelling ;)

    In the Early Church, and to this day in most churches, when Communion is served, the whole Church partakes- all that are baptized and/or profess faith in Christ- not just the leaders (priests/pastors/etc). Communion represents the Marriage Supper because it represents the shed blood and crucified body of Christ who is our Redemption (not in a Trans-substantiation sense, but as a symbol). All who have been invited and have accepted the invitation to Heaven are welcome at the Table because they have put on the garments of Christ, both in the Church (a representation of the Kingdom) and the Kingdom itself.... of course, there may be some who are coming to the Table in church who are not in Christ, unfortunately they eat and drink condemnation upon themselves, which they will have to answer for at the Judgment.

    Using Paul's instructions to husbands in Ephesians, this shows how we (the Church) are equals as members of Christ.

    Ephesians 5:30-32, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

    Verse showing that the Communion bread and wine is the symbol of Christ's body and blood (again, not saying Trans-substantiation):

    Luke 22:19-20, "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

    Hopefully I didn't go too far off in another direction- if you understand the whole "Marriage Supper is Christ" thing forgive my rambling. I just went into it in order to show how we are all one in Christ- equals- as the husband and wife are equals... yet the husband being the head (for the sake of order).

    ________________________________

    As for your 2 Timothy reference:

    Read it in context of the whole chapter. This is an issue within the earthly Church ("Church militant" which is still imperfect), not the Kingdom of Heaven. The Church is the "great house" referred to in verse 20. Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching people things that were contrary to the Truth and leading people astray, but there is no indication that they were appointed as official teachers by the Apostles.
    Because of this sin they became vessels of dishonor. There can be no vessels of dishonor (sin) in the Kingdom of Heaven because no sin can exist in His fully revealed presence.
    There are some who are "in" the Church (gathering at worship, fellowships, and involved in the activities), even proclaiming Christ, yet they will not be saved (if they do not repent) because they do not follow Him. These will not be in the Kingdom or at the Marriage Supper. They were invited and they showed up at the door but they were not wearing the appropriate garments.

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    As for being left behind at the Rapture- I am assuming you are talking from a pre-trib view? The Scriptures are not clear as to exactly when the rapture will happen. There is a lot of controversy over that. The important thing to concern yourself with is are you following Christ now? If you are, which I assume is true for you, then you don't need to worry about when the rapture will happen or if you will be on Earth during the Great Tribulation. Stay close to Christ and He will guide and protect you according to the Father's will, just as He did the Martyrs.

     
    #40 WAJungleMonkey, Mar 13, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
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