Can man desire to be reconciled to God?

I didn't take anything out of context. Jesus said the hour is coming "and now is" when the DEAD shall hear his voice.

If Jesus has to regenerate them before they can hear, then they are no longer dead, they are alive. Don't you get that? Then Jesus would have had to say the living hear his voice and live, which doesn't even make sense to begin with, but second of all, that is not what he said. He said the DEAD shall hear his voice. Believe what the scriptures say, not what some man made doctrine says.

The definition of dead is not unliving. The scriptural definition of dead is to be separated from God. We see this from the beginning of scripture to the end. What did Adam and Eve do after they sinned? The hid themselves from the presence of the Lord.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Adam and Eve had just sinned, they were spiritually dead. What is the very first thing this verse says?

AND THEY HEARD THE VOICE OF THE LORD GOD WALKING IN THE GARDEN

There you go right there. Adam and Eve were spiritually dead but completely able to both hear and respond to God. They carried on a conversation with God. But what you miss is what death means. It means to be seperated. They hid from his presence.

And you see that all through scripture.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

When the rich man died and went to hell, he was separated from Abraham and Lazarus.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

This rich man is spiritually dead. He is in hell right now. But he can see, hear, and speak. He is not like a corpse whatsoever. He could hear Abraham when he spoke. But notice they are separated by a great gulf. This is what spiritually dead means.

And you see that in Revelations as well.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The saved are allowed through the gates into the city. But the unsaved are not. They are without, they are not allowed to come in ever. They are forever separated from God.

You have been taught wrong, spiritually dead is nothing like a corpse. The dead can still hear, see, speak, think, feel pain and emotions. They are nothing like a corpse.

 

Winman-

What is your view on this?- all who hear also live. everyone who hears God is saved

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

What does it mean to be born again?
Why do we need to be born again?
When are we born again?
How are we born again?

 

Very good point. I've never seen it put quite like this before, but I believe you are correct!

Remember the Scriptuture says:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

I also agree. They claim a man is regenerated supernaturally before the man can even have a desire to hear the word of God, the ability to repent, or the ability to place faith in the gospel.

So the man is already born again before he hears the word of God, before he repents, or before he believes the gospel.

The scriptures always show a man first hears the word of God and is convicted. This conviction leads to repentance, which leads to a person placing faith in Christ for salvation.

This is what I have long said. If Calvinist doctrine is true, then the gospel is not even necessary, because you have already been regenerated and born again. And Pinoybaptist has confirmed this is what he believes. He is actually being consistent with the logical conclusion of this doctrine.

 

What do you mean "all who hear also live"? Is that what John 5:25 says? No. It says the dead shall hear Jesus's voice, and those that hear will live.

Jesus also said very similar in John chapter 11.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Do you see what Jesus said here? He that believeth in me THOUGH HE WERE DEAD, "yet" shall he live. A lifeless corpse cannot believe, it cannot do anything. So Jesus is speaking of the spiritually dead, not physically dead here.

Jesus is showing the spritually dead have both the ability to hear his voice and believe on him. And if they do, he will give them eternal life.

Calvinism teaches that the spiritually dead cannot hear or believe. Jesus says exactly the opposite.

 

I failed to answer these questions

Many things happen when you are born again. You have been given new life, the Holy Spirit now dwells in you.

We need to be born again because in our sinful state we are separated from God.

You are born again when you hear the word of God, the gospel, believe it and trust on Jesus Christ. It is then you receive the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What does this verse say happens first? You hear the truth, the gospel.

What happens next? You trust or believe on Jesus.

What happens last? You are sealed with the Holy Spirit. This is when you are regenerated and born again, when you receive the Holy Spirit.

But the hearing and believing you do while you are spiritually dead. Now go back and look what Jesus said, does what I told you contradict this? No.

Jesus said the dead can hear his voice and those that hear shall live.

Jesus said he who believes, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

But Calvinism absolutely contradicts all these scriptures. Calvinism teaches a man must first be made alive before he can hear or believe. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what scripture says.

You may not like that, but just keep reading these scriptures and you will see it is so. Don't go by me, go by what the word of God says.

Answer to last question- You are born again after you receive the Holy Ghost.

Look what Peter told the Jews.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What happened first here? They heard the word of God and were convicted. What did Peter tell them to do? To repent, that is, turn from unbelief and trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. What happens last? Peter says if they will trust on Jesus they will receive the Holy Ghost.

Now, go back and compare that to Ephesians 1:13 and you will see this is the exact order shown there. It is the order you will always see in scripture.

 

I believe this is speaking in general terms, not necessarily meaning that every person has not sought God. For instance, the Pharisees said concerning Jesus:

Joh 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

Surely you see that they did not fear that each and every man would believe on Jesus.

There is a book written by Bill Rice some years ago titled, Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa. Read that book and you will see that some of the natives were looking for God in ignorance. It was not until Bill Rice preached the Gospel to them that they were able to come to a saving belief in the Gospel.

 

The key is that those who are dead and to be saved (refer to my post page 7) hear Jesus voice and are saved, so all who hear Jesus are saved, not externally but internally. We know this is an internal calling because Jesus spoke to many and most rejected Him. This means that Jesus is spiritually calling them from death to life. This implies that the reason they are going to live (and made alive) is because they first hear Jesus spiritually because He initiates the salvation by commanding life in dead bones. Because dead people have God directly speaking to their souls and creating life inside them with the same power he raises physically dead people and creates the universe they see and believe. believing = justification cleansing of sin. He who believes will live because he once was in a state of unbelief and now is in a state of belief. All who believe live. Not because in their blindness, they have seen God and chose Him. Blind people dont choose God, the fleshly people dont choose God, why? because those who are in the flesh just don't get it and have no desire to seek God, in fact they hate Him because they see no need for Him.

 

Well, that is not what Jesus said, he said the dead can hear his voice, he said the dead can believe, and if they do they will be made alive.

Jesus knows the difference between the dead and the living. If the dead could not hear and believe, he would not have said so.

I really have nothing more that I can tell you.

 

very important:

Take note that this rebirth must not only be hearing with physical ears, but in the heart. Now ask yourself why a person who has a nature of confusion and doesn't understand spiritual things would understand and believe?

Consider these passages-

2 Corinthians 4:3-6 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they may not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ." ...'For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

Ephesians 2:1-7 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 "Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written,
'THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND WHICH HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.'
For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Philippians 1:27-29 "Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents--which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God. For you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake..."

 

Judging by the number of posts here on this thread you are the one who has trouble controlling your mouth.

BTW, does it make you more correct to insult and belittle other believers? Were you predestined to be rude and obnoxious?

I believe I have read most of them. In my opinion all they prove is that Calvinism (of course you claim not to be one, but we all know that you are) is false.

 

zrs6v4

OK, I am going to show you one single verse. It was said by the apostle Paul, who other than Jesus himself is without controversy the greatest theologian that ever lived. Even Peter had difficulty understanding his writings. No one had a greater understanding of scripture and doctrine than Paul (other than Jesus).

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost SINCE they believed.

Now, if Calvinism is true, and a person must first be regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they can possibly believe, then a person would also have to believe that the apostle Paul was completely ignorant of this, and did not properly understand salvation.

This question Paul asked is absolutely absurd if the doctrines of Calvinism are true.

 

I can say for certain that pinoybaptist is speaking truthyfully when he says he not a Calvinist. He is a Primitive Baptist. Primitive Baptists are not Calvinists. Not a single Calvinist I know agrees with pinoybaptist on the use of means to call the elect to Christ.

Calvinists agree with him on a lot of things, but not that.

 

The problem with your interpretation of the Romans 8 passage is that it runs afoul of Greek grammar.

The so-called "Golden Chain" of salvation (Foreknew, meaning chose, predestined, called, justified, and glorified) are all aorist verbs with God as the subject. The aorist signifies a simple past event and God is the one doing all the action(s).

Paul's point (seen especially because of v. 28) is this: Our salvation is a done-deal from beginning to end. Because it is God who is working to accomplish it, it will be indefatigably accomplished. Paul has given us the God's-eye point of view, seeing even our glorification as a "past" event, that's how certain it is.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Yes, that is convoluted, and absolutely unscriptural. But what else are they going to do with this verse? It proves them in error.

Amazing, the scriptures show a person receiving the Holy Ghost after believing numerous times, but fail to show a person being regenerated to believe even once in all scripture.

 

No, all honor and glory is God's and I will not take it back. There is nothing man does that does not originate with God. He breathes and lives because God allows him to. Doctors and medical science progresses because God gives the wisdom, whether they acknowledge it or not, every good thing happening in the world and to man, generically or individually, happens because God allows it to happen.
And such an attitude should be what each who names the Name of Christ possesses because it is bad enough that unregenerate and reprobate men refuse to give all glory and honor to God and anyone who names the Name of Christ as his own and refuses to acknowledge the truth that everything he is and every good thing that he has or is happening to him has as its ultimate source the One who loved him before they loved Him is guilty of humanism.
Your eternal salvation you owe to God, your ability to obey you owe to God, the blessings that come from your obedience you still owe to God, and no subtility in your methods of debate or discussion can move me away from that position.
ALL GLORY AND HONOR BELONGS TO GOD in anything.
Deny that in print and I dare you to do it now !

strawman ? your position's favorite dodge. your view is summarized and apparent in your denial of God's sovereignty in everything.

No, but your refusal to give all honor and glory to God and your putting in print that doing so is unbiblical, is.

And you're simply drawing the line on "what is due him" ?

you know, skan, it'll be a surprise, given your theology and contempt for God's glory if it doesn't give you a problem.

The measure of honor that stops where God's glory begins. If my parents were alive today and they told me to stop worshipping God in spirit and in truth and go back to the Catholic faith, then we part ways and if that is construed as dishonoring them so be it.

God needs my defense ? The One who creates everything from nothing needs the defense of a worm ?
You gotta be kidding, right ?

okay.

Because it is His sovereign will and right to do so, just as it is His sovereign will and right to withhold rewards, and if you have a problem with that as well, I really feel sorry for you.

I have said this before and will say it again. The unelect, the unregenerate, the wicked, is not under obligation to repent, or to put faith in Christ.
God has already set a date for their judgment promulgation, when I don't know, but that event is in Revelation.
The regenerate, the elect, are.
And they are not punished for lack of faith.
They are chastised, upbraided, corrected.
They, upon regeneration, and hearing of the gospel, are under obligation to repent, and turn to God from their idols.

The one who is dead will not respond. He is dead in his sins. Ephesians 2 is clear on this. First they were dead in their sins, but God quickened them. You cannot rearrange this, and no amount of lingual calisthenics can make it say what it is not saying.
Man's choice is just about as free as a rattlesnake trying to be a pigeon.
His choice is bound by his dead nature, he will not come to God on his own unless He hears the voice of God first.
Lazarus has been dead four days, and he had no will of his own to come alive and out of his burial cave and out of his burial clothes until the Son of God's voice called out to him.
Again, no amount of twisting this scripture will change that.
The eyes of the blind man at the pool of siloam was as blind as a bat, until Jesus opened it with his spit, then he began to "see", but not yet clearly, for he saw men as trees.
Until the Spirit regenerates the dead in sins, he has no eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

The gospel message is as powerful as the Holy Spirit allows it to be. The gospel message does not bring quickening. It brings joy to those who are quickened already, to the dead and blind it is simply preaching. You can preach as eloquently as you want, as caffeinated as you want, if none of those listening are quickened first, and their hearts prepared, you might as well be preaching to the dead in the cemeteries.

There is nothing in the doctrine of grace called irresistible regeneration, nor is there such a doctrine in Calvinism.

And to that I will ask an Arminian question: Why hold the lost responsible when he is, as you say, lost ?

all in due time, skan.

That is your conclusion. The scriptures you cited did not say that the Jews had been provoked to envy already, did it ?

I am not set on winning anything.
Only that truth be told.
And there is little truth in the Arminian theology.
At best it is error, at worst it is humanism in disguise.