Can mankind forfeit saving grace?

I reiterate, when you can't accept the above, you're argument is not with me. Go ahead with the typical accusations. I grow weary of this futile debate. It only stifles the joy that's in the Word for me. All that matters is that I'm comfortable with where I'm at. May you be also.

 

Jonah 2:8 The Hebrew word is chesed, The common word for "mercy".

NKJ Jonah 2:8 "Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.
​

It does have a rare nuance that would make the functional equivalent of this verse say :

Jonah 2:8 Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own good sense.​

Or more in keeping with the 21st century vernacular:​

Jonah 2:8 Those who regard worthless idols have forsaken their own common sense.​

HankD​

 

Kyredneck, all of the verses you show to prove Total Depravity can be shown to be pulled out of context, and do not prove Total Depravity.

Nature here means learned behaviour, not how you were born. Note it says you "once lived" and "doing". A baby cannot do these things. And other verses show man by nature can do good.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Here Paul says the Gentiles "by nature" keep God's laws and have the law written on their hearts. These are people who did not know the scriptures, they were not saved. But all men have a God-given conscience and know they difference between right and wrong. So this contradicts Total Depravity.

This might be the one verse in all of scripture that could truly be argued to support Total Depravity, but "cannot" in verse 43 does not show inability, but unwillingness. Here is what Matthew Henry (a Calvinist) wrote on this verse.

So cannot here does not mean inability, it means unwillingness.

This is taken out of context, Jesus first says his sheep are those that hear his voice. And the scriptures say God does not know you until you first believe.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

You are not known of God until after you trust on Christ.

1 Cor 2:14 has been discussed many times, and is speaking of the Greeks who sought worldly and non-spiritual answers (wisdom).

This is taken out of context, Jesus shows that a man is responsible for what fruit he bears.

Matt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

That's enough, although all the verses can be shown not to be interpreted as you do. Anybody can pick verses here and there to make the scriptures say anything they want, and that is what Calvinism does. Have you ever seen this little story?

This is how many interpret the scriptures, they take a verse here, a verse there, and construct their own theology.

 

Well, in fact there is life outside the C/A debate and there is also some interesting scriptural doctrine outside said debate.
The only folks in the Bible who do have security of salvation are those covered by the Davidic Covenant which would include those placed in Christ.

 

Splain that please? Never heard that one before.

 

First let me say surely you understand if I show a degree of skepticism in your request.
And since I am a bit pressed for time tonight, let me do this and then if you are still interested, we can talk.

The scriptural references for the Davidic Covenant and how it might affect eternal security of the believer are found in:
Psa 89: 28-36; 2Sam 7:12; & Acts 13:34.
I give you these so you will know this is based in the Book and not some man's commentary.

Reveiw these passages and then if you are still truely interested we can discuss it.

 

Do you believe the unfaithful believer will suffer punishment during the Millennial Kingdom, but will still be saved?

 

Yes, we are speaking of eternal life here. I know we don't 'earn' it, and did not contend such in my post. But here is a fact that is irrevokable... God can not, does not, and will not eternally save anyone until after they have believed. Now since 'faith', according to Romams 4:4-6, states that faith can not nor in any way be viewed as a work for salvation.. we must ask the question - Why is our salvation dependant upon us believing and not just divine grace?

How could they have been saved, you ask? I am glad you did. It is because scripture, by God Himself, said they 'could'. It does not matter that they did not love the truth, nor that they would not EVER recieve it. What matters is that God said they reject the truth that COULD/CAN SAVE THEM.

How could it 'save them' it the atonement of Christ was not made FOR them?
Answer - It could not, not even potentially, hypothetically, or otherwise. But what the passage states is that after they rejected the offer 'to be saved' God makes them to believe their lie so that they might be condemned/damned.

WHY? Because they did not believe the truth.
The emphasis is on the fact they 'could' have believed.. but they chose not to. Salvation was offered to them, 'to be saved' but since it was reject, they were damned BECAUSE they did not believe the truth.

What Truth? (THIS IS KEY) What truth is it talking about that they rejected, which was their sole/only provision for escaping damnation?

No non-c disagrees with you here. We all praise God that He chose us to be saved. IMHO - I think you take the rest of the passage further than the text is intending to take it. While there is no denying that we are chosen to salvation, it is 'way' God determined it to functionally work where we see biblical differences.

But in either case, for the purpose of the OP, the main thrust or point I am making with these passages I have presented (of which this is but one) we see salvation is not only offered to all men, but that in the offering (of which a many reformed agree God does) there is a truth which is denied by those who will not be saved and rejection of this truth damns them, and it is that truth which proves Christ did not die only for the elect.
Because, we both agree, it is only Christ death (propitiation) for ..whomever.. which makes the way for a person to be saved and that by faith.
Therefore no offer of salvation can be given unless the truth is that Christ died for that salvation to be possible.

 

I don't think anyone in the Millennial Kingdom, whether they are Jew, Gentile, or the Church of God will be suffering.
My previous statement was dealing with the security of salvation, not an inheritance.

However there is the following; but I don't think that is what you are referring to because I would not term those in the following passages as 'unfaithful believers':

Zec 14:
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

Thanks Allan!

 

My apologies for the skepticism. But this:

..........sounded as if you are implying TWO ways of salvation. You're not, are you?


The passages you referenced are fulfilled in Christ, not David. Agree?:

28 My lovingkindness will I keep for him for evermore; And my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, And his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, And walk not in mine ordinances;
31 If they break my statutes, And keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes.
33 But my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, Nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, Nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness: I will not lie unto David:
36 His seed shall endure for ever, And his throne as the sun before me. Ps 89

When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 2 Sam 7:12

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David. Acts 13:34

 

Do you believe that some Christians will go to outer darkness during the 1000 year reign of Christ?

 

IMO there is only one way of salvation and that is following the instructions of God. However we must also recognize God gave different men a different set of instructions.

Men get fouled up when they try to follow the instructions given to a different group while ignoring the instructions given to them.
An example would be Catholic doctrine which is very similar to OT salvation under the law but misplaced to the wrong group.

I think they are fulfilled in both just as the Book says. David's heirs had the "sure mercies of David" and thus God's faithfulness would not turn from them. (Psa 89:33)
(The full implications of this are seen when one studies OT salvation under the law and eventually has to answer the question of what became of an OT saint if he all of a sudden decided he no longer had to do all the things involved in Temple worship.)

The Bible is very plain to tell us Jesus was in the line of David so therefore the "sure mercies of David" were also on Christ and all those placed in Christ.
God will never take from us His lovingkindness or suffer His faithfulness to fail us because we are in Christ.
And to make sure this happens He seals us with the indwelling Holy Spirit who is the earnest of our salvation.
We do not have to worry that the Holy Spirit might leave us as it did king Saul.

33 But my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, Nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, Nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness: I will not lie unto David:
36 His seed shall endure for ever, And his throne as the sun before me. Ps 89

But, in answer to the OP, not everyone in the OT was in the linage of David and certainly not the Gentiles of Nineveh.

 

I believe outer darkness is Hell and only lost folks go to Hell.

But that brings up an interesting study.
Amy what do you feel is in store during the future 1000 yr reign for a Christian who has lost his/her inheritance but not his/her salvation?

 

Yea, olegig, you're right there with hoi polloi on that one, ya gotta get that 'formula' just rite or you won't really be saved; you'll just think you are when you're actually bound for hell......

So, you really were saying there are two different sets of instructions for salvation, and we're all really not one man in Christ now; there is a Jew, and a Gentile, and a Barbarian, and a Scythian, and a free. Never mind what Paul says........ different rules for different people. Right?

So what group does the law apply to now?

That confirms it, you DO believe people can be saved by keeping the law!

The more you post, the more you show how weird your religion is. Are you Jewish?

 

I believe he is a Millennial Exclusionist. They believe that an unfaithful or unfruitful believer will spend 1000 years (during the time of the MK) being punished for their unfaithfulness. After which they will then go to heaven with all other believers. But they will be excluded from the Millennial Kingdom.

This was a HOT topic on the BB a few years ago, so much so that they were banned from the board for teaching heresy.

 

I don't know if he's MK exclusionist, but he definitely is "classic" dispensationalist. Two ways of salvation...