1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

CAN Mankind turn to God? (Calvinism vs. Pelagianism)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bismarck, Apr 2, 2007.

Top Posters
Page 2 of 2
  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Genesis 4:26 indicates there was a change. Before Enosh was born, men didn't call/invoke/pray to YHWH-Elohim. Once Enosh was born, they did. Therefore, Adam and Eve did not invoke/call/pray to God. During that time of their disobedience, there first two sons killed / exiled themselves...


    The KJV reads "them all", clearly indicating Jews only. If that is an incorrect rendering, please let me know.

    Pharaoh was a reprobate.

    Romans 9:22 (LitV)
    But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction,​

    This is nearly word-for-word what you just said about Pharaoh. God made His power known through Pharaoh, a vessel made for wrath. I think we are in essential agreement here (and this is verging off topic).
     
    #21 Bismarck, Apr 11, 2007
  2. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    It implies no such thing webdog as calling on God is not a natural ability.

    1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Hello Bismarck.

    So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Gen 4:16.

    This would mean that God lived among men, if men were not praying, face to face. But it shows that up until the time of Seth God had not been forgotten because the others remained in God's presence whatever that means. This begetting stuff is hurting my brains.

    No, I said, "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him.". We belonged to Him until He gave us to Jesus. "Here am I, and the children God has given me." Heb 2:13. :)
    John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
    John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

    Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (NIV)

    Rom 11:32 For God concluded all in unbelief... (Strong with the added words removed.)

    Rom 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    This isn't leaving the topic but very much part of it. Since God created a man to demonstrate His power to the world then at least one man had no chance to turn to God.

    john.
     
    #22 johnp., Apr 11, 2007
  3. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    And everytime God creates a person whom He "knows" will never believe in His Son, the same results occur.
    But I have yet to any non-Cal. on here interact with that point.
     
    #23 Isaiah40:28, Apr 12, 2007
  4. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is because mere foreknowledge is fatalistic. God foreloving a people is not fatalistic... IMHO :thumbs:
     
    #24 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  5. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right, which is why it is absurd that the Calvinistic position is referred to often as fatalism.
     
    #25 Isaiah40:28, Apr 12, 2007
  6. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cain left God's presence (Gen 4:16). Adam & Eve hid from God's presence:

    Genesis 3:8
    And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of YHWH God among the trees of the garden.

    This led to God driving out man from Eden (paradise) in Gen 3:23-24. There is still a separation, although Cain is "further" from God. Cain's line died out in the flood, whereas some of Adam&Eve's line, through Seth, survived in the form of Noah. As it is written, "All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death" (1 John 5:17). "Hiding from God" causes pain and suffering... forsaking God causes death. (Eventually... yet just as it is written, "Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil" (Ecclesiastes 8:11). We should be grateful to YHWH-God for that "grace period", which gives sinful man plenty of time to mend his ways.) As you prompted me to discover, Cain's line continued to exist for 1500 years before it was wiped out in the flood... but, in the end, sin always comes back to bite you.)

    These are not mutually exclusive, belonging to the Messiah and YHWH-God, as it is written:
    1 John 2:23
    No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.​

    (Hence, Paul confesses he belongs to YHWH in Acts 27:23, aboard the sinking ship back to Rome from jail in Jerusalem.)

    According to the Strong's numbering, in Romans 11:32, both phrases "them all" and "all" come from the same root, #3956:

    Rom 11:32 For 1063 God 2316 hath concluded 4788 them all 3956 in 1519 unbelief 543, that 2443 he might have mercy 1653 upon all 3956.​

    Thus, the KJV has clearly mistranslated the text, which also reads more naturally with the rendering you (and most other translations) use. Even still, you must admit that we have the following situation:
    • 1000 BCE: Jews believe, Gentiles disbelieve
    • 58 CE: Jews disbelieve, Christian Gentiles believe
    So, it is more a case of "all of the people stray from God some of the time" than "nobody believes ever". Furthermore, what about Jewish Christians? As of 58 CE when Paul wrote Romans, many of the Jewish 12 Apostles were still alive. Their forefathers believed, and they still did. You cannot take Rom 11:32 out from context and extrapolate to condemn all men to perpetual disbelief carte blanche...

    rather, mankind has been enthralled to satan since Genesis 3:6, when satan raided Eden and tricked man. Crudely put, because man is so stupid compared to satan, the only brief moments of righteousness = freedom from sin/satan in world history have been when YHWH-God mercifully sent His prophets into the world (like 2 Chr 24:19) to call us to His Will = Righteousness = Freedom from Sin = Freedom from satan's bondage (Rom 6:6). This is what I'm saying, and it is almost what Calvin taught. Calvin taught, to my knowledge, that even if man has Free Will, our nature is corrupted. And since our nature "colors" what we want, and since we only do what we want, our fallen nature predisposes us to sin. We can, theoretically (I argue), choose righteousness if/when we truly want rightwiseness, but it is only when YHWH-God sends prophets accompanied by stunning miracles that fallen man wants righteousness, "Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe" (John 4:48).

    Thus, I am arguing that fallen man, being bound to sin through his own stupidity and inability to stop being duped by satan, can only choose Life and Righteousness when shown such by YHWH through His prophets. Yet, when shown the Truth, man can recognize it. Thus, YHWH-God is truly the author of all life, as without YHWH-God (God forbid!) all mankind would be quickly doomed by satan to sin = KIA.

    And Judas?
     
    #26 Bismarck, Apr 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2007
  7. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Bismarck.

    Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden and either God went with them or He was prayed to because Cain was kicked out of God's presence to go a wandering leaving his parents in God presence. Gen 4:14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

    I did not say they were. I believe in the Triune God.

    I'll accept that that is the way it reads. :) But the next two quotes are debatable. I'll work on it.

    There's two things here. If mankind was enthralled to satan then they could not be free unless they chose to be enthralled to satan in which case they were not enthralled. Secondly, Satan did not deceive Adam, Adam knew what he was after, 1 Tim 2: 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

    Mainstream Calvinism might teach this but I do not agree, I don't believe man has sovereign power to sin. The choice is sovereignty. For man to be sovereign would mean that God reacts to us, we pull His strings. :) He is the puppet Master.

    Judas was to fulfil scripture. He was doomed. ...None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. John 17:12.

    john.
     
    #27 johnp., Apr 16, 2007
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 2 of 2
Loading...