Can someone tell me why God left preservation to a heretical catholic priest?

Daniel David · Feb 24, 2004

How is it exactly that God left preservation up to a lost catholic priest?

Erasmus was no friend of the reformation. He was a humanist.

Yet, today we have so many idol worshipers, errrrgggg, KJVOs, bowing down and kissing the feet of this guy.

What makes Erasmus so special?

skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Erasmus was no friend of the reformation. He was a humanist.
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I am not certain why this keeps coming up after it has been so completely refuted. I think it is simply another attempt to stir up strife and discord, and that is a dirty shame.

Daniel David · Feb 24, 2004

Originally posted by skanwmatos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Daniel David:
Erasmus was no friend of the reformation. He was a humanist.
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I am not certain why this keeps coming up after it has been so completely refuted. I think it is simply another attempt to stir up strife and discord, and that is a dirty shame. </font>[/QUOTE]That would be why he was so against Luther and his doctrine of justification by faith?

Memo to all KJVOs: STOP TRYING TO REVISE HISTORY

Why not stick to the issue instead of trying to use your changing the topic antics. Oh, that reminds me, my child is crying.

skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

Originally posted by Daniel David:
That would be why he was so against Luther and his doctrine of justification by faith?
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He wasn't against justification by faith. In his debates with Luther he believed Luther misrepresented the beliefs of Augustine. Many baptists today would agree.

Memo to all KJVOs: STOP TRYING TO REVISE HISTORY
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Memo to all anti-kjvos: Stop telling untruths to support your views.

Why not stick to the issue instead of trying to use your changing the topic antics.
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What changing the topic antics? You asked a question regarding Erasmus which implies things about him which have already be completely refuted.

Oh, that reminds me, my child is crying.
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Must run in the family.

[ February 24, 2004, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: skanwmatos ]

skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

Erasmus:

At the close of his life, Erasmus found himself at odds with both the great parties in the battle over the Protestant Reformation. His last years were embittered by controversies with men toward whom he was drawn by many ties of taste and sympathy. When the city of Basel was definitely and officially "reformed" by Protestants in 1529, Erasmus gave up his residence there and settled in the imperial town of Freiburg-im-Breisgau. It would seem as if he found it easier to maintain his neutrality under Roman Catholic than under Protestant conditions. His literary activity continued without much abatement, chiefly on the lines of religious and didactic composition. For unknown reasons, Erasmus was eventually drawn once again to Basel in 1535, after an absence of six years. Here, in the midst of the group of Protestant scholars who had long been his truest friends, and, so far as is known, without relations of any sort with the Roman Catholic Church, he died.

Throughout the entirety of his life he had never been called to account for his opinions by any official authority of the dominant Church. The attacks upon him were by private persons, and his protectors had always been men of the highest standing. After his death, in the zeal of the Roman Catholic reaction, his writings were honored with a distinguished place on the Index of prohibited books, and his name has generally had an evil sound in Roman Catholic ears. The extraordinary popularity of his books, however, has been shown in the immense number of editions and translations that have appeared from the sixteenth century until now, and in the undiminished interest excited by his elusive but fascinating personality. Encyclopedia of Philosophy. James Fieser, Ph.D., general editor Bradley Dowden, Ph.D., assistant general editor ©© 2001
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skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

Erasmus:

He was neither a reformer nor a traditionalist, not fish, not foul, but perhaps he was simply a man running away from the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as it was quickly becoming known to all. In the end he was left in no man’’s land, reviled by the leaders of the reformation, and at the same time refused a Christian funeral by the Roman Catholic Church. From THE RESTORATION OF CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE, A CALL FOR REPENTANCE AND REFORMATION, BY STEPHEN WILCOX. ©© Copyright 2000 and 2001 by Stephen Wilcox, All rights reserved
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skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

Erasmus:

Erasmus Greek New Testament was placed on Rome's Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Trent, which meant that it is forbidden for Catholics to even read it without approval from their bishop upon pain of mortal sin. (Will Durant, The Story of Civilization: Part VI - The Reformation. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1957, p.285 and Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church: Volume VII - The German Reformation. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1910, 1970, p. 415.)
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skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

A Catholic writer, Hugh Pope, under an official Roman Catholic imprimatur and nihil obstat, says

Erasmus was a heretic from Rome. He scoffed at images, relics, pilgrimages and Good Friday observances. Pope suggested Erasmus had serious doubts about every article of Catholic faith: the mass, confession, the primacy of the Apostolic See, clerical celibacy, fasting, transubstantiation and abstinence. (Hugh Pope, English Versions of the Bible. St. Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1952, p. 105 and Schaff, p. 413.)
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skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

Erasmus

He also ridiculed invocation of the saints, reverence for relics and prayers to Mary. There was scarcely any superstition or abuse in the Roman Church that Erasmus did not denounce. (John Hurst, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2. New York: Eaton and Mains, 1900, p. 107.)
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"He seemed to take pleasure in suggesting doubts about almost every article of Catholic teaching . . . Small wonder then that he came to be regarded as the man who paved the way for the Reformation . . ." (Pope, p. 105)
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skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

Erasmus

"Bigoted Catholics," according to Philip Schaff, reviled him as "Errasmus" because of his errors; "Arasmus" because he plowed up old truths and traditions; and "Erasinus" because he made an ass of himself by his writings. They even called him "Behemoth" and "Antichrist." The Sorbonne condemned 37 articles extracted from his writings in 1527. His books were burned in Spain and long after his death.(Schaff, pp. 414-15.)
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skanwmatos · Feb 24, 2004

And now, from his own words, regarding salvation:

"We are assured of victory over death, victory over the flesh, victory over the world and Satan. Christ promises us remission of sins, fruits in this life a hundredfold and therefore life eternal. And for what reason? For the sake of our merit? No indeed, but through the grace of faith which is in Christ Jesus . . . Christ is our justification . . . I believe there are many not absolved by the priest, not having taken the Eucharist, not having been anointed, not having received Christian burial who rest in peace, while many who have had all the rites of the Church and have been buried next to the altar have gone to hell . . . Flee to His wounds and you will be safe." (Roland Bainton, Erasmus of Christendom, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1969, pp. 68-70, 269-70.)
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timothy 1769 · Feb 24, 2004

Why did God preserve Israel through the actions of a bunch of jealous, lying menstealers?

BrianT · Feb 24, 2004

Because God doesn't need to use "perfection" to accomplish preservation.

Precepts · Feb 24, 2004

Get real Brian. It' perfect preservation, not imperfect.

rsr · Feb 25, 2004

Erasmus is like the Thomas Jefferson of the Reformation. You find what you want to find.

Not surprising that Christian humanism should find itself in the same boat as "liberalism" here.

As I said earlier:

"Humanism" can mean many different things, depending on the context and time period.

In connection with Erasmus, humanism resulted from the rediscovery of the classic Latin and Greek writers. Humanists advocated study of the classics and classical culture — they studied the "human" texts, not just the "sacred" texts. Erasmus was probably at the pinnacle of the tradition; Thomas More would be another example of a Christian humanist.

Billions of pages could be written on the effects of humanism and its influence on the Renaissance and the Reformation, and later on the Enlightenment. Just a couple of points:

Erasmus' production of his Greek New Testament was a direct result of the rehabilitation of classical learning. So was the preparation of works on Hebrew grammar and Hebrew dictionaries by other scholars.

The attitude of the classicists — which attacked the pedantry that dominated education — helped pave the way for Luther and others. The humanists criticized the scholastics (and the hierarchy) for their methods and lack of imagination. Thereafter, it would be easier to take the next step to criticism on theological grounds.

Of course, humanism without its Christian base can quickly lead to skepticism and what can be termed "secular humanism." But that's another topic.
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tinytim · Feb 25, 2004

He used him the same way he uses anyone that is not perfect.

The same way He used Alexander the Great to unite the, then known, world with the Greek language in order to pave the way for the NT to be written and Christianity to be spread easily.

The same way He used the Romans in building roads to make the world accessible to Christianity.

The same way He used Wescott and Hort to show us that older is better.

The same way He used Constantine to stop the persecutions.

and now the Same way He used Mel Gibson to show the world how much Christ loves us!

No one is perfect, but God can use us all.

Isn't that wonderful.

BrianT · Feb 25, 2004

Precepts quipped:

Get real Brian. It' perfect preservation, not imperfect.
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....except in 1605, when it was "scattered" and no single Bible was perfect! Whee! Logic is fun!

Daniel David · Feb 25, 2004

This is what I am getting at. God had to use a lost person to accomplish preservation. All those verses that the KJVOs wrench out of context apparently only starting applying in 1611.

Well, that is after a lost catholic went through 3 editions of the TR (none of which were the same), followed by at least 11 other major overhauls, a rushed translation by a committee that sought to please a queer king, multiple revisions since then...

Man, preservation according to the KJVO really is a joke.

This one is preserved. No wait, this one is. No wait...

skanwmatos · Feb 25, 2004

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Well, that is after a lost catholic
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Let's see. You say that a person who believes "Christ promises us remission of sins, fruits in this life a hundredfold and therefore life eternal. And for what reason? For the sake of our merit? No indeed, but through the grace of faith which is in Christ Jesus . . . Christ is our justification . . ." is lost, and of whom the RCC says was a heretic from Rome is a Catholic? Interesting. So, by your standard would you say I am a lost Catholic too? I believe in Justification by faith in Christ too, and I too would be described by Rome as a heretic, so, according to your logic I too am a lost Catholic!

went through 3 editions of the TR
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Actually Erasmus published 5 editions of the TR.

a rushed translation by a committee
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7 years is a "rush?"

that sought to please a queer king,
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Really? James fathered 9 children by his wife Anne, whom he loved dearly, and wrote a rather good book denouncing effeminate and homosexual men. How many children have you fathered?

Man, preservation according to the KJVO really is a joke.
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So is "history" according to you!

Orvie · Feb 25, 2004

Originally posted by Precepts:
Get real Brian. It' perfect preservation, not imperfect.
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Get real Precepts, you believe in pickling, not preservation.

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