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Can Unregenerate Man "Do" any Righteous Thing?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dr. Bob, Jan 5, 2011.

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  1. R. Lawson

    R. Lawson New Member

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    Brother Luke,

    Would you mind showing us from Scripture where specifically regeneration precedes faith?:thumbs:
     
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It is has been proven to you a dozen times from the Word of God that regeneration precedes faith.

    If you will commit to respond line by line to my posts I will prove it to you once again.
     
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    No, because that was never the intention. When you receive a PM stating you serve another "god", that is not sarcasm.
     
  4. R. Lawson

    R. Lawson New Member

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    That's downright foolishness, Webdog. You're in good company, though. I've been called every name in the book by Arminians and Calvinists.:laugh:
     
  5. slave 4 Christ

    slave 4 Christ New Member

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    In John 2 these people "believed" but Jesus did not commit himself to them.

    Why? Their faith was self-motivated, for self oriented reasons.

    Now the logical question should be asked. What kind of belief is effective for salvation?

    In John 3 Jesus gives the answer. You must be born again, (ie. regenerated or given new life) then you are made willing, that you may exercise genuine faith in Christ.

    Notice the order, First new birth, generated by the Spirit, then Jesus gives the exposition about believing in Him. (see John 3:13-21)

    Hence, regeneration precedes faith.

    The Spirit's work is more than simple drawing or wooing, because Jesus said this work of the Spirit is the new birth.
     
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You have never proven your position, nor can you.

    I can show you many verses that unmistakeably say you must believe to have life. You know them, I have shown you many times, but you stubbornly resist the truth.
     
  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    "How often, dear Brothers and Sisters, are you assailed, not only by the skeptic, but by our very profound doctrinal brethren? I know some very great doctrinal friends, who, because our experience may not tally with theirs, will sit down and say, “Ah, you don’t know the power of vital godliness.” And they will write very severe things against us and say that we don’t know the great secret, and don’t understand the inner life. You never need trouble yourself about these braggarts—let them talk on till they are finished. But if you do want to answer them, do it humbly by saying, “Well, you may be right and I may be mistaken, but yet I think I can say, ‘One thing I know, that whereas I was blind, now I see.’” And I have known them to sometimes go to the length of saying if we don’t hold all their points of Doctrine and go the whole 18 ounces to the pound, as they do—if we are content with 16 and keep to God’s weights and God’s measures—“Ah, those people cannot be truly converted Christians, they are not so high in Doctrine as we are.” Well, we can answer them with this, “One thing I know, that whereas I was blind, now I see.”" —Charles Spurgeon, "Simple But Sound"
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    There is no contradiction. When you see "as it is written", you need to go back and to see what is being referred to. Which Psalm was Paul referring to, and who were those from that Psalm who didn't seek God?
    Romans 1, Ecc. 3:11, Acts 17:26-27, Romans 2
    Not when you put it into the context Paul intended. You can interpret the Bible through that one verse, or you can put that verse in context and let Bible explain Bible.
    Actually, that passage speaks of man rejecting the truth that has been given to him. They exchanged the truth God gave them for a lie, they had and knew the truth but they rejected it. To reject anything means the option of acceptance exists, or it's not rejection by definition.
    First, it's Acts, not Romans. Second, you added the "who are sought" to the truth of that passage. Who was Paul speaking to? Pagans, not the "elect". Some accepted the truth, some rejected it. If you claim they were all "elect" you have problems with those who rejected the truth.
    Paul was giving truth to everyone who was there, not just those who accepted. The truth is each and everyone of them was placed in the exact location and place in time to seek God. There is no "perhaps reaching out and finding" God if your doctrine is correct. For Paul to say such would be foolishness if he is only speaking of the "elect".
    If a person has passed from spiritual death to spiritual life, they are in union with God. There is no need to "seek" someone you are in union with. If they have eternal life before seeking God, they would be saved apart from finding Him. That is not a biblical position to have.
     
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Southern Baptist Founders Journal contributing editor Timothy George, in his book Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) p. 225:

     
  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    What? In John 2 people saw the miracles that Jesus did and believed. Jesus did not commit himself to "hang around" with these people because he didn't need their testimony to go about his work.

    There is nothing in John 2 that says Jesus rejected the belief of these people. He rejected the need for them to testify about him.

    Look at your argument. It is full of 'therefore' and 'the next logical thing' and 'hence'. It's complicated and full of human reasoning. The gospel isn't that difficult.

    In the case of Nicodemus, are you saying that he was regenerated? If so, he must have received the Holy Spirit, correct?
     
    #70 InTheLight, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2011
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Jesus simply told Nicodemus he must be born again to see(enter) heaven. This is absolutely true.

    Jesus DID NOT say you must be born again to have faith. Luke reads that into the account, but it is not there.

    You only have to read a few more verses to see that Jesus said THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

    You have to believe before you have life, therefore the unregenerate MUST have the ability to believe.
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    All you can do and have done is rape the Scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

    The Bible clearly teaches that regeneration precedes faith as has been shown to you.

    If you will commit to respond line by line to my posts I will prove it to you once more.
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If it's that clear, why do the majority of true believers not see it, and why has this debate been going on for centuries?
    Just curious why you are requiring this. You have responded to many of my posts not in this fashion, but instead pulling all of my line by line responses into one quoted response, then replying to it as a whole.
     
  14. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I notice you never show these verses that support your position. I just showed where Jesus told Nicodemus THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

    That is a very simple statement Luke, it says you must believe to have life. If you would take your blinders off you will easily understand it.
     
  15. R. Lawson

    R. Lawson New Member

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    It's clear, Webdog--clear as mud.:tongue3:
     
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    There are all kinds of things that are very clear that have been debated for centuries.

    The deity of Christ is another.

    The Trinity is clear but it has been debated for nearly two thousand years.


    Because Winman is notorious for not responding to MOST of his "opponents" posts.

    I think I do respond line by line to the vast majority of your posts, btw.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Watch it, that will somehow be twisted to show how clear it really is, maybe that's why Jesus put mud on the blind person's eyes :laugh:
     
  18. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I have shown them to you numerous times before and will gladly do so again if you will commit to respond to my posts line by line.

    What happens with you winman is we refute your positions and you never respond to our refutations.

    You just disappear and come back in a day or so regurgitating the same crud that we have already shown to be false.

    If you will stay in the pocket and respond line by line I will show you once again where the Bible clearly shows that regeneration precedes faith.

    Just make the commitment and we'll get started.
     
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I disagree that pre-faith regeneration is as clear as the trinity and the deity of Christ. True believers don't disagree on the latter two as there is clear Scripture on those topics, but the vast majority of true believers do not agree with you on pre-faith regeneration.
     
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    We've been doing well, Webdog. It is this kind of snotty remark that causes trouble between you and I.

    When we go to using laugh symbols as we laugh at each other as if the other is stupid and laughable- it causes problems.

    Let's keep a positive streak going, huh?
     
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