Featured Can we know the mechanics of salvation

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6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The physical seed[sperma} are distinguished from the {teknon}


28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

 

This is not an attempt to derail the thread in any manner, but to sort of explain the confusion some may have at Icon's post.

Because Icon is covenant thinking, the view basically is that the church replaced political/social/spiritual Israel, and that only the church is the true Israel.

Generally speaking they are also a-mil folks who reject the teaching of John in Revelation and assign it all to allegory. (painting with a very wide brush)

I personally reject this view, because I value the literal rendering of the prophets and the NT - that as Paul teaches in Romans, the Israeli people are under a cloud of blindness so that the Gentiles may be grafted in to the promise. However the blindness is temporary and the promise of redemption will be given to the people called by His name. ALL Israel (the gentile believers and political/social/religious Israel) will be saved.

Icon is right about much - just wrong on this one.

 

agedman

Agedman,

The church does not "replace anything". It is an expansion and completion of God's eternal purpose which He has purposed in Christ Jesus the Lord.

Agedman,

Jesus is the "True Israel".....Ot Israel was but a shadow of the true.

22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn



4 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

the true exodus...

Isa 49:1-8.....
Hebrews 2-12.....

He is the "true Tabernacle" true manna"etc.....All saints for all time are found in Him on the last day.

All Believers before Israel was a nation
All believing Israelites in the ot.
All the elect remnant of the 1st century israelites
All the gentiles grafted in.
All the elect sheep for all time .
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

Rm.....hold onto to it...do not over think...I am speaking plainly....watch-


Jesus is the promised seed. singular...He alone

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Any and all of the elect are raised up.....as children of the PROMISE.
Not as physical birth....but Spiritual birth Jew/Gentile raised up together in Jesus....

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.



They thought physical birth was what got them into the Kingdom...they were wrong as here;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Jesus defines it for us!


Spirit Baptism places us in Saving Union with Christ...the promised seed...

so we He died, we died in Him, as He is raised, we are raised...that is a believers position......IN CHRIST.....the promised seed.

There is no other place of refuge...He is our City of Refuge, He is the ARK,The High Priest, The Manna, He is ALL IN ALL...LORD OF ALL.

 

You are welcome:thumbs: We should be about this...[seeking truth] rather than what else takes place in here:wavey: Even if someone holds something else, clarification is always in order, so if you believe different, at least you know why and what you reject ...and why biblically you reject it.

Clarification is given , because no one attacked anyone personally. Agedman was trying to connect the dots I posted, but I did not give enough of an explanation.....I offered a second post that might help more.
I have been working on this teaching or understanding of Redemptive History for years now,and find it helpful and instructive, in evangelism.

Many persons are unchurched and see the world as the mess that it is , with violence and evil. Explaining the elements of the history of redemption in a condensed form gives meaning to it all and centers on the blood of the cross.

This is the only hope for the lost and dying world.

 

Icon, lets explore a bit of differences between us.

In the above passage, you are using it to show that Jesus was Israel because you align it with the son.

I do not.

Jesus was the "ONLY BEGOTTEN" son, but not the only son, and Israel (political, social, religious) was/is a son just as believers are heirs "according to the promise."

Then you take the following as supporting proof, too.

However, if the first statement is incorrect (Israel is Jesus) then the statement above is misapplied, too.

I have no problem with the account given in the Scriptures of Jesus being taken to Egypt, nor of his being called out of Egypt by the direct decree of God. Just not that Israel and Jesus are the same person.

God said, "If my people, who are called by my name..." Using your example, Jesus is a people (plural) and not a person (singular).

Agreed, we are found IN him, but not Him. We are joint heirs, not replacement parts.

The Galatians quote is a wonderful passage that certainly puts the believers as grafted into the Abraham promise. But it does not replace what Paul states in Romans as I post below:

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

​

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

​

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

​

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


​

Clearly, by looking at the bold and underlined parts, Paul shows that the political, social, religious Israel WILL be saved and the believers joined to the everlasting covenant promise made to Abraham.



There is only ONE time that can be accomplished according to the Scriptures. It must take place in the Millennium when Christ literally rules this earth with a rod of iron.

The typical a-mil position obliges a rejection of the view of the church being grafted into the root in which Israel is still an integral part. Yet when one reads the sermon on the mount, in which Christ delivered to the Jews, there can be no doubt the political/social/religious Israel will be saved with believers grafted in, too.

 

While responding you went on:

There is absolutely nothing of significance in which we would disagree. I would point out that the "branches broken off" mentioned by Paul in Romans, very well could be the religious rulers of that day who without shame rose up against Christ. But that is pure speculation on my part.

I would be a bit careful about "the promised seed" part, for I don't recall the Scriptures ever referring to Christ as a seed in that manner (though I may be mistaken).

Christ is referred to as "the first fruits." (1 Cor. 15)

Absolutely!!!!

There is no doubt that the blood sacrifice of the Cross of Christ is the only redemption available.

No one, from Adam to the last man standing when the world ends and time is no more can claim to be redeemed in any other manor but by the direct work of Christ.

 

Not being snooty, but I thought Brother Icon was spot on.

 

Can we know the mechanics of salvation? At the point of regeneration and then conversion? No. After we have grown in knowledge, wisdom, faith, etc? Absolutely. None of us knew very much when we were first saved. We knew we were lost in need of a Saviour, but that's about as deep as our knowledge went, imo. In fact, that's all we need. God comes to us, enlightens our darkened heart by His mavelous Light, that shows us our sinful condition. God then leads us down the path of faith(justification), regeneration, repentance, and salvation.

 

Excellent post. This reminds me of those who do come to salvation, and as Paul says, never progress, or are still on a milk diet. One of the questions that has haunted me about church members who rarely attend church, or if they do, sit on a pew on Sunday morning with their minds on the restaurant after church, is it a matter of a Christian that is still on milk, or that salvation was never completed in the first place?

Paul also talks about saved as by fire. The problem is that from a human perspective, that fine line is impossible to define. It is not within our power to determine anyone's eternal state at any given moment, other than an educated guess.

While Paul talks about Christians on milk and getting to heaven with a D-, James makes it quite clear, in fact it is the theme of the entire book, that being a Christian should produce fruit after salvation. Faith without works is dead.

Salvation produces certain signs. One wants to be with believers. One wants to serve the Lord. How to figure out others right on that line, between the D- and F, I do not think is humanly possible. Perhaps those who appear to be doing nothing for the Lord are actually producing fruit, that we just do not perceive it. The bottom line is, those that play games with that line are playing with their eternal destiny.

 

The way I have come to understand it is this way. When we are saved, we are brand new babes in Christ. Now, how does a brand new babe know anything(or in this case, much), in regards to the deep things of God? None of us did. We had the basic understanding we were lost and that God, and only God, could save us. That is all that is needed. God enlightens our hearts by His Light, and this causes us to see the despair sin has placed within us, we then flee to Him, and then He does the rest.

If someone is in church for 10 years and still sucking on a bottle, then there's been no growth taken place.

 

I agree with you here, and I am no covenant theologian.

 

Yes, but to clarify the dilemma, is that person with the milk bottle after ten years, is he lost, or is he one of those Christians barely over the line? Maybe he or she is producing fruit we do not detect seeing them only once a week. Paul makes it clear such people exist, but as for me, I am not going to play games with that line.

This is a guess purely on my part, but chances are greater than not that the ten year bottle drinker was not saved in the first place.

 

Again, this is a hypothetical situation, but I don't want to even cast judgement concerning that, either. All we can do is leave them in God's hands. I would have my concerns about someone being in church for 10 years, and them still wearing a bib. But that would be betwixt them and the Lord.

 

Blame the church then...they have not prepared the student. It is they who are ineffective, not the student.