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Featured Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 28, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    CAN YOU LOSE SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

    In this thread we will be mainly quoting NEW TESTAMENT scriptures. There is many more scriptures in both the OLD TESTAMANT and NEW TESTAMENT that we have not included here and this OP is not exhaustive.

    Let's look at the scriptures.

    SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON...

    FAITH *JOHN 3:14-21 in God's promises *2 PETER 1:4,

    REPENTANCE *MATTHEW 3:2; MATTHEW 4:17; LUKE 13:3-5; ACTS 2:38; ACTS 3:19; ACTS 8:32; PROVERBS 28:9-13 and

    CONFESSION *1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:13 OF SIN *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 in the NEW COVENANT, are all requirements for the hope of salvation. Those who follow God do not practice sin and those who continue in SIN do not know God *1 JOHN 3:9; 1 JOHN 2:1-4 and need to be BORN AGAIN. If the HOLY SPIRIT cannot come and go why are we warned to not GRIEVE the HOLY SPIRIT *EPHESIANS 4:30; PSALMS 51:10-13.

    GRIEVING OR QUENCHING THE HOLY SPIRIT

    We GRIEVE God's SPIRIT by SIN *GENESIS 6:5-6; PSALMS 119:158 and not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD *PSALMS 95:10-11; HEBREWS 3:10-11; HEBREWS 3:17-19. It is ONLY those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END that will be saved *JOHN 8:31-36; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; HEBREWS 3:13-14; HEBREWS 3:6; COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 13:18-23.

    According to the scriptures if we are not CONTINUING to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END we can GREIVE God's Spirit and depart from the faith *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.According to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT, SIN is the transgression of God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) and through the LAW we have the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is when broken *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11. No one is "UNDER THE LAW" if they have by God's GRACE repented of their SINS and CONFESSED them and by FAITH Accepted the FREE GIFT of God's SALVATION *ACTS 2:38; 3:19; 8:22; 1 JOHN 1:9; EPHESIANS 2:13. According to God's WORD it is only those who are CONINUING in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN that are "UNDER THE LAW" because they stand guilty before God of breaking it *ROMANS 3:19 and do not know God and need to be BORN AGAIN *1 JOHN 2;1-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

    According to God's WORD all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD through love. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    ARE WE IN A SAVED STATE WHILE CONTINUING IN KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

    All those who continue in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are not in a saved state before God and can lose their salvation unless they REPENT and BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.* HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10; 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-10; GALATIANS 5:19-21; EPHESIANS 5:6; COLOSSIANS 3:6; REVELATION 21:7-8; TITUS 2:11-12

    THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE AND CONTINUING IN THE FAITH

    There are God's Word showing that we can have the assurance of salvation today as long as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word always in the "present tense" (now) and is why it is written we have the hope of eternal life now as we believe and follow God's Word...

    TITUS 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    TITUS 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    COLOSSIANS 1:22-23 [22], In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and blameless and unreproveable in his sight: [23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel..

    TITUS 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    However, it is only those who ENDURE temptation to the END BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word that receive eternal life.....

    MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

    MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

    HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

    HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

    JAMES 1:12 [12], Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

    God's Word is full of warnings not to depart the faith and all these things are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world have come.

    2 PETER 3:9 [9], The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    What are your thoughts?

    May God bless you as you seek him and continue in His Word.
     
    #1 3rdAngel, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    I thought we could add this here from another thread as it shows that salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.

    THE LITTLE WORD “IF” DEMONSTRATES IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT HEBREW AND GREEK SCRIPTURES THAT SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BOTH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD (present tense) OR NOT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD.

    OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

    IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

    We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

    GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

    Consequences for not believing and following...

    GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

    EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

    Blessings for believing and following...

    EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

    LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

    LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

    There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

    ..............

    NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

    IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

    God's forgiveness is conditional...

    I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

    MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

    MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

    JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

    JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

    JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

    God only hears those who are following His Word...

    JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

    JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

    JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

    JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

    JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

    JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

    Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Which of those many references shows a saved person then lost? I missed it. Also repentance precedes faith where both are mentioned, Mark 1:15; Acts of the Apostles 20:21.

    According to Matthew 7:23 were never saved. According to John 10:28 are never lost.
     
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  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    All of them because they all show salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word. However we can start with HEBREWS 6:4-8 if you like?
     
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    "Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?"
    No.

    All the "ifs" are evidential, not "conditional".
    The Lord knows that His enemy ( Lucifer ) has sown tares among the "wheat" of His field.

    Those that pass all the tests of faith, obedience, holiness and godly behavior, show the necessary evidences that they are saved.
    Tares will fail all the tests of faith, fail to keep obeying, and fall away in one form or another.

    Man looks on the outward appearance, while God looks upon the heart.
    A heart that He has changed...not one that man cooperates with Him in changing.
    As I see it, that's one of the most misunderstood passages in the entire New Testament.

    Since none of the ones His Father gave to Christ shall be lost ( John 6:39 ), then that passage describes a "hypothetical" situation...in that, IF one of His precious children that He is not willing should perish ( 2 Peter 3:9 ) were to fall away, they could never be renewed again to repentance.

    It would require Christ being sacrificed all over again.

    The good news is, true believers ( as opposed to false ones that confess Christ with their lips, but whose hearts are far from Him ) are kept by the power of God in their faith ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), not by their own efforts at obeying Him.

    They through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body ( Romans 8:13 ), not through their own paltry efforts.
    Lastly, they learn to walk in the Spirit, so that they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ( Galatians 5:16 ).
     
    #5 Dave G, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
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  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I did nothing to earn my salvation. I can do nothing to lose it.
     
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  7. Jesus Saves!

    Jesus Saves! Member

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    Romans 7:9-25 KJV
    [9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. [12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. [16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. [17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. [19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    There’s a separation between the inward and outward man. Those that are truly saved are chastened here for wrong doing after being saved. Those that are lost are judged forever in a lake of fire.

    1 Corinthians 11:27-32 KJV
    [27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
     
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  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    If you ever receive eternal life there is no way you could lose it, for it could not have been eternal if you lose it.
     
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  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Nope that is not true at all! The meaning and use of "IF'" used in the scriptures provided according to the original HEBREW and GREEK are CONDITIONAL!

    The use of the HEBREW and GREEK application to the word "IF" is a conditional partical to the context and application of condtions applied to the scriptures quoted that show that salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.

    IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

    IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

    If we do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD we have no salvation and do not receive God's promises.

    For example let's look at just a few of the New Testament GREEK scriptures...

    God's forgiveness is conditional

    I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

    MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    ..........

    Conditons for inheriting eternal life

    MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

    JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

    JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

    JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

    ..........

    God only hears those who are following His Word

    JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

    JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

    JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

    JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

    JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

    JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

    ..........

    Sorry my friend, it seems like God's Word disagrees with you.

    Can you see your error here?

    God bless
     
    #9 3rdAngel, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    It is true that none of us did anything to earn our salvation. It is not true that we cannot do anything to lose salvation as salvation is condtional on believing and following God's Word. Many think they have salvation only to find out that they did not *MATTHEW 7:22-23. God's Word says that those who once believed and followed God's Word yesterday and have fallen away back to a life of known unrepentant sin not believing and following God's Word today do not have salvation and lose it because they no longer believe and follow God's Word *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27.
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Eternal life is eternal for those who believe and follow God's Word not for those who once believed and followed God's Word yesterday and have fallen away back to a life of known unrepentant sin not believing and following God's Word today. God's Word says that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word (present tense) *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27; JOHN 3:15-21.
     
  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your response...
    Not really as it is pretty clear if you study the scriptures who they are talking about. It is talking about those who were once believers that fell away back to a life of sin to become unbelievers that no longer believed and followed God's Word. Let's look at the scriptures verse by verse and see it this is so...

    CAN WE FALL AWAY FROM THE TRUTH OF GOD’S WORD BACK TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,

    Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS of UNBELIEVERS? Were these BELIEVERS Born again christians

    The application here is to BELIEVERS...

    1. Having been enlightened v4;
    2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
    3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
    4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
    5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

    [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

    Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

    [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
    [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

    Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6).

    elsewhere same theme...

    HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], FOR IF WE (believers) SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Yep seems like those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are God's Adversaries who will receive the judgments of God. Do you think these people will enter into God's Kingdom?

    Can you see your error here brother?
     
  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You have established an impossible standard for any individual to keep. If doing the will of the Father is required to maintain one's salvation then you have turned grace into works. Jesus died for all sins - past, present, and future. I will grant you that a person who sins with impunity and not even a shred of repentance is on perilous ground. But their salvation is not lost; it was never found! The Apostle John writes in 1 John 2:19 that, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." If you go back to the passage you cited (Matthew 7:22-23) you will notice that Jesus said in verse 23, "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ (emphasis mine). Jesus never knew them. In other words, they never were in Christ. You cannot lose something that you never had.
     
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  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    The impossible standard leads us to Christ that we might be saved by faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25; ROMANS 3:31; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. Salvation is from sin not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. The Good news of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is that the through faith in God's Word we walk in God's Spirit to will and to do of His own good pleasure *PHIPIPPLIANS 2:13; 4:13: GALATIANS 5:15; ROMANS 8:1-4. Those who continue in known unrepentent sin need to be born of God to walk in His Spirit or they will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-7. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10.

    God bless
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How do you reconcile "grace" being "not of works" and the work of following God's word as a prior condition in order to be saved? Please give the question some thought before giving an answer.

    Look at that text carfully. Where does it say the ones who were, ". . . enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, . . ." understood the grace of the gospel and where saved? In Matthew 7:22 are such who had made claims, who were never saved, trusting in that they had done works. Matthew 7:15-20. Look at the work of the Holy Spirit, 1 Thessalonians 2:13; John 16:8-11. And note Hebrews 6:9-10, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. . . ." Ephesians 2:10, teaches good works are the result of actually being saved, being saved not in any way by one's works, v.9. The lost fail to understand the role of God's grace alone in salvation (Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
     
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No such expample is found in Holy Scripture. That is reading into the texts what is not there.
     
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  17. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    3rdAngel, you mentioned Hebrews 6 several times in your posts. Do you believe Hebrews 6 when it says if a person falls away after being partakers with Holy Spirit it would be impossible to renew them to repentance?

    So, if you believe a person can lose their salvation you must also believe, according to Hebrews 6, they can never get it back. You get one shot at salvation. Once lost (again) always lost?

    I have never yet met someone who believed a person can lose salvation explain Hebrews 6 in any way that makes sense to the context. They always say a person can lose and regain their salvation any number of times during their lives, even though Hebrews 6 says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

    Will you be the first I've seen to say if you lose salvation you can never get it back?

    Peace to you
     
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  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says;
    Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
    Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    • You see if we are not under the Law then to those who have faith in Jesus Christ are not living by the law, we live by faith. No where in scripture are we told to follow the scriptures to be saved. but instead follow Christ. The Law never saved anyone. The reason is that if we are saved then we love our neighbors and there by we fulfil the Law. Keeping the Law make faith void John wrote;
    1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    Now you come along and tell us we do sin when the Bible says in this verse above; those born of God cannot sin. Are you claiming the Bible is wrong.
    No one is able to perfectly follow God's word to the letter because man is no where near to being perfect.

    Your theology places man under the Law when scripture clearly states we are not under the Law we are under Grace. You do know what Grace is don't you?
    Hebrews also says.
    Heb_13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
    This is a promise from God's word Yet you claim we can be lost.
    Hebrews 6:4-8 does not say they are no longer saved. They can't be renewed because they are already regenerated and they can still follow Christ by faith

    This verse;
    Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
    Is not speaking about hell fire but have all the works we have done because of Love are burned up so that your soul maybe saved.

    1Co_3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    Wake up and smell the coffee
    MB
     
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  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Further noting ". . . tasted . . . ," is used twice. When Jesus, as a case in point, ". . . tasted . . . ," the vinegar mixed with gall, Matthew 27:34, He did not drink of it. And so the text in Hebrews 6:4-5, says tasted, not that they had drank the heavenly gift or the good word of God.
     
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  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Not in this case..

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,

    The application here is to BELIEVERS...

    1. Having been enlightened v4;
    2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
    3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
    4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
    5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

    "HAVING TASTED" means they experienced all of the above in the "PAST TENSE" of scripture application.
     
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