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Featured Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 28, 2019.

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  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand."     ( John 10:27-28 )

    His sheep hear His voice, and they follow Him.
    It's a declarative, not an imperative or a "conditional".

    Ignoring God's word does not make it disappear, 3rdAngel.:Sneaky



    Not one single precious child of God will ever perish.
     
    #61 Dave G, Aug 30, 2019
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  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Once again, you ignore the reason it is impossible to be renewed to repentance is BECAUSE they would have to crucify Christ all over again. You understand that cannot be done. Christ cannot be crucified again, therefore if a person loses their salvation it is impossible (according to this passage) to regain it.

    I know why you refuse to face this scriptural truth. It is inconsistent with your belief that a person can lose and regain their salvation any number of times during their life.

    I appreciate the conversation. It seems we are talking past each other at this point, so unless you want to specifically explain how a person can lose their salvation and regain it without crucifying Christ again (which this passage gives as the reason it is impossible to renew someone to repentance again) I think we've said everything to be said.

    Peace to you
     
    #62 canadyjd, Aug 30, 2019
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  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Nope! Being one of God's sheep is CONDITIONAL on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. Those who are not God's Sheep do not hear His Voice as shown in the CONTEXT you leave out...

    JOHN 10:1-4 [1], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [2], But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [3], To him the porter opens; and THE SHEEP (believers) HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word of God): and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [4], And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and THE SHEEP FOLLOW HIM: for THEY HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word).

    JOHN 10:26-28 [26], But YOU BELIEVE NOT (unbelievers), BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP (believers), as I said to you.

    Note: Those who BELIEVE are God's SHEEP while those who DO NOT BELIEVE are NOT God's Sheep.

    [27], MY SHEEP (believers) HEAR MY VOICE (the Word of God), and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I give to THEM (believers) ETERNAL LIFE; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    NEED MORE SCRIPTURE?

    MATTHEW 10:38 And HE THAT TAKES NOT HIS CROSS AND FOLLOWS ME IS NOT WORTHY OF ME.

    JOHN 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again to them, saying, I am the light of the world: HE THAT FOLLOWS ME shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    MATTHEW 4:20-22 [20] And THEY (those disciples who believed) straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED HIM. [21], And going on from there, he saw other two brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and HE CALLED THEM. [22], And they immediately left the ship and their father, and FOLLOWED HIM.

    MATTHEW 19:27-28 [27], Then answered Peter and said to him, Behold, WE HAVE FORSAKEN ALL AND FOLLOWED YOU; what shall we have, therefore? [28], And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, That you which have FOLLOWED ME, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    JOHN 10:1-4 [1], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [2], But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [3], To him the porter opens; and THE SHEEP (believers) HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word of God): and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [4], And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and THE SHEEP FOLLOW HIM: for THEY HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word).

    JOHN 10:26-28 [26], But you believe not (unbelievers), because you are not of my sheep (believers), as I said to you. [27], My sheep (believers) hear my voice (the Word of God), and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I give to them (believers) eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    Those who have saving faith believe and follow God’s Word.
     
    #63 3rdAngel, Aug 30, 2019
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Once again your just repeating yourself and not addressing the scriptures in the post sent to you. You are free to believe as you wish. I choose to believe God's Word. Seems you do not. If you wish to continue the discussion please address my posts. If you do not you do not have to and we will agree to disagree.
     
    #64 3rdAngel, Aug 30, 2019
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Denying the words doesn't make them go away, sir.

    They shall never perish ( John 10:28 ).
    They shall not come into condemnation ( John 5:24 ).
    All of their trespasses are forgiven ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).

    You're preaching works, not grace.
     
    #65 Dave G, Aug 30, 2019
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  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Absolutely, here is something we can agree on.
     
    #66 3rdAngel, Aug 30, 2019
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    We don't even agree on grace versus works.
     
    #67 Dave G, Aug 30, 2019
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Grace is when God chooses and causes a person to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).
     
    #68 Dave G, Aug 30, 2019
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Absolutely, here is something we can agree on.
    CONTEXT is to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOd's WORD which are the condtions to being one of God' s Sheep as shown in JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28 and elsewhere in JOHN 8:12; MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28. Context matters.
    Indeed! The they are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD because only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD are His Sheep *JOHN 10:26-27.
    "THEIR" is in reference to God's Sheep who the scriptures define as all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD *JOHN 10:1-4; 26-27. Context matter.
    Rubbish! We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    There is no such think as "Once Saved Always Saved" this is a false gospel first preached to Eve in the Garden of Eden by the father of lies in GENESIS 3:1-5.

    God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not are not His Sheep.
     
    #69 3rdAngel, Aug 30, 2019
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    We are saved by God's GRACE through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. God's grace is not a liscence to sin it is given for obedience to the faith *ROMANS 1:5; ROMANS 3:31. Salvation and God's promises are condtional on believing and following Gods' Word *JOHN 10:1-4; 26-27; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.
     
    #70 3rdAngel, Aug 30, 2019
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    Ephesians 2:8-9.
    Again, I agree.
    Romans 6:1-11.
    No, it is not.
    No, they are not.

    Your doctrine is not sound, and you are preaching that a man cooperates with God in order to gain His favor.
    That is works, not grace.
    Man's efforts and God's efforts combined, results in polluting His grace ( Romans 11:5-6 ).
    God's efforts alone towards saving someone, are a direct result of His mercy and grace.

    Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.
    No works are required, but God's children can and do evidence both holiness and good works, as a result of who He made them to be....His precious children, foreknown and predestinated...called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ).
    Theirs is a faith that will endure, no matter what test or trial they are subjected to.

    You have the cart before the horse.
     
    #71 Dave G, Aug 30, 2019
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  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as "conditional grace".
    That is "Wesleyan Arminianism"/ "Semi-Pelagianism" / "Molinism" and it is not biblical.

    It makes the grace of God subject to the will and desires of men, instead of leaving Him free to have mercy and compassion upon whom He wills ( Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19 ).

    Well said, sir, and I can't help but to agree.:)
     
    #72 Dave G, Aug 30, 2019
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  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    #73 Dave G, Aug 30, 2019
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Actually God who does the saving also is the one who does the keeping. John 6:39; John 10:27-30.
     
    #74 37818, Aug 30, 2019
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  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your response...
    Nice Job it is good to agree with God's Word but then we get to these scriptures...

    Where you say..
    Yet it is God's Word that says that Grace is for Obedience to the faith not me..

    ROMANS 1:5 By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.

    The purpose of faith is to establsh OBEDIENCE in the heart of the believer through the Spirit..

    ROMANS 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

    ROMANS 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT

    if we walk in the flesh (disobedience) we will die..

    ROMANS 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

    We need to be born again to walk in God's Spirit not to walk in the flesh...

    GALATIANS 5:16,This I say then, WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT AND YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH.

    see also ROMANS 8:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-10

    Yet you say...
    But God says only those who believe and follow God's Word are his Sheep? If we do not believe and follow God's Word it is because we are not his Sheep and we do not know him. *JOHN 10:1-4; 26-27. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil 1 JOHN 3:3-10. Those who are not born of God through the Spirit will not enter the kingdom of God because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:12; JOHN 3:3-8.

    Your post has no truth in it. As posted earlier we are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    There is no such think as "Once Saved Always Saved" this is a false gospel first preached to Eve in the Garden of Eden by the father of lies in GENESIS 3:1-5.

    God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not are not His Sheep.
     
    #75 3rdAngel, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Absolutely this is only for God's Sheep who are defined as all those who believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21; JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-27

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow Him. Those who do not believe and follow are not God's Sheep.
     
    #76 3rdAngel, Aug 30, 2019
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    I have never said GRACE is conditional and I do not follow or know much about "Wesleyan Arminianism"/ "Semi-Pelagianism" / "Molinism". I only believe and follow God's Word and it is God's Word and no one elses that is presented here that shows God's salvation and his promises are conditional on believing and following His Word.

    God's Sheep (believers) here His Voice (the Word). Those who do not are not His Sheep.
     
    #77 3rdAngel, Aug 30, 2019
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    REVELATION 20:14-15 [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15], And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Yes I believe this and it is where all those who do not believe and follow Gods Word end up.
     
    #78 3rdAngel, Aug 31, 2019
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Calvinist Jesus Christ could have walked up the mount and said..........

    Guys if God likes you, you will be saved, If he doesn't like you are toast. Buh BYE!

    That is all that had to be said and done.

    No death on the cross, WHY at all? to make a point to who, to demonstrate to what? There is no sacrifice.

    You get repeated warnings throughout all of scripture.

    2 Peter 1

    3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

    Hurray we escaped the corruption, got true knowledge, partakers of divine nature. You have escaped granted EVERYTHING pertaining to life and Godliness..


    2 Peter 2

    . 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

    Someone should explain to peter "SO WHAT?" So what if anyone turns away from the holy commandment.

    Now here is the kicker some folks here subscribe to a Gnosticism where you cannot possibly know the way of righteousness unless God granted you the enlightenment.

    And yet here Peter is saying it would be better if they did not know the way of righteousness, than to know it.

    How can the "LAST STATE" be worst if the first state is HELL BOUND.

    If your a hell bound reprobate thats one state any change from there is saved.


    Thousands of bible lines in scripture.

    Watch this:

    Once saved always saved. 4 words see how easy that was? You gotta make me believe God was dumb enough not to write those 4 words flat out.


    1 Corinthians 3

    16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

    Heres the facts. You are a temple of God, Temple of God is HOLY, and that is what you are.

    If any man destroys the temple God will destroy him.

    Now lets use the Calvinist mindset. He himself is holy and a temple. A reprobate is not a holy temple.

    1 Corinthians 6
    15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” 17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.


    "but the immoral man sins against his own body." The REPROBATE can't be the immoral man else you have to concede his body is holy too.





    1 Corinthians 6

    9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    Absolutely no point in making this threat. Just the fact that Paul would even have to explain this to saved person defeats the whole purpose of gnostic and obvious internal change that only God can force.

    All this warning is a waste of time.
     
    #79 utilyan, Aug 31, 2019
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Just because someone does not understand God's word the way you have personally chosen to does not mean they do not believe God's word. That is a false accusation and ungodly. If you cannot debate any better than that then leave. Stop your childish junk.
     
    #80 Revmitchell, Aug 31, 2019
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