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Featured Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 28, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hello Dave, some comments are provided for your consideration below...
    NO! Firstly, it is not me stating that salvation can be lost, it is God's Word *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-31; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12; 2 PETER 1:22; MATTHEW 24:12-14. Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12;MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28.* Need more (click me) ? Our part is faith *1 JOHN 5:4. It is God that keeps his children from sin as they abide in him *1 JOHN 3:6; JOHN 15:1-10 as they believe in His Word *2 PETER 1:3-4; It is God who works in us as we believe His Word *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; PHILIPPIANS 4:13.
    NO! I have said no such thing or do I believe any such thing. If I have never said or believe anything you claim here then why are you pretending that I have? I do not know what others teach I only believe and follow God's Word and it is God's Word that says; We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Please do not make up things I have never said or do not believe.
    NO! I have said no such thing or do I believe any such thing. If I have never said or believe anything you claim here then why are you pretending that I have? I am not turning anything into anything it is you who is reading into the scriptures that to which the scripture does not say. It is God's Word not mine that says that both salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word. These are God's Sheep *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12;MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28.

    1 JOHN 1:9 IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    IF (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

    * Need more (click me) ?
    NO! I have said no such thing or do I believe any such thing. If I have never said or believe anything you claim here then why are you pretending that I have? It is God's Word not mine that says; We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Please do not make up things I have never said or do not believe.
    NO! It is your interpretation of these scriptures that is in error as shown in the OP. It is God's Word not mine that says God's Sheep (believers) hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12;MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28. Do you believe God's Word? Sorry Dave God's Word disagree with you. It is God's Word not mine that says both salvation and God's promises are all conditional on believing and following God's Word *Need more scripture (click me)?

    Sorry Dave God's Word disagrees with you.

    to be continued...
     
    #121 3rdAngel, Sep 1, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    NO! There is no despite here whatsoever. Every scripture provided here is in complete harmony with this OP that shows that God's salvation and promises are conditional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING GOd's WORD. None of the scriptures you have provided here (not a single scripture) says we receive God's salvation and God's promises if we do not believe and follow God's Word. It is God's Word not mine that says God's Sheep (believers) hear his Voice (believe the Word) and follow him *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12;MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28 and this is who God's promises are directed at (those who believe and follow God's Word).
    NO! It is you who is ignoring God's Word. It is JESUS not me that says in the parable of the sower that some who were BELIEVERS received and believed God's Word and ENDURED for a while but when tribulation and persecution came were departed the faith *MATTHEW 13:20-21; These warnings of believers FALLING AWAY and DEPARTING THE FAITH are also repeated in *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-31; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12; 2 PETER 2:1-21. These are God's Word not mine saying believers can fall away and depart the faith to become unbelievers.
    NO! Dave your false allegation and statements are becoming tiring. I have never said or believed anything you are saying here and have consistently stated the opposite. Now if I have never said or believed the things you are claiming why are you pretending that I have? As posted many times already; It is God's Word that says; We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Please do not make up things I have never said or do not believe.

    The teachings you promote of "Once Saved Always Saved" is not biblical and is a false gospel that is repeated in the mainstream churches of the day that has it's origin from the father of lies first preached in the garden of Eden to Eve saying you can eat of the forbidden fruit (break God's commandments) and not surely die *GENESIS 3:1-5. Does this not worry you? It should.

    Please do not claim things I have never said or believe. Sorry Dave God's Word disagrees with you. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

    Hope this helps clarify what it is I believe and your confusion claiming what I do not believe in this matter.
     
    #122 3rdAngel, Sep 1, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Known unrepentant sin *HEBREWS 10:26-31
     
  4. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Do you teach loss of salvation?

    If so, then you teach that a person's own efforts are what save them...not God's perfect efforts ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
    The Lord never fails to save those that are His ( Philippians 1:6 ).

    Your God is a god who cannot save unless a person "lets Him", and then tries like mad to keep it by their walk.
    If they falter, if they don't keep to the straight and narrow, then they fall off it and perish, don't they?

    Loss of salvation is not Scriptural, because it relies on man's efforts.
    Step back and take a look at your doctrines.

    What, ultimately, does a person's salvation rely on...God's efforts, man's efforts, or both?
    If you say anything other than God's efforts, you are relying on your own.

    I don't care how many different ways you try to approach it.
    Loss of salvation does not rely on God's power alone to save a person...if it did, then God would not be all-powerful, would He?
     
    #124 Dave Gilbert, Sep 1, 2019
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  5. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Loss of salvation is promoted by well over 50% of the institutions and organizations that name the name of Christ.
    This includes the Roman Catholic Church, Pentecostals, Charismatics, Assemblies of God, Nazarenes, Churches of Christ, Methodists, "Wesleyans", Bible Missionaries, Seventh Day Adventists and many more.

    You're teaching exactly what over 90% of professing Christians believe, if you consider that there are over 1.2 billion baptized Catholics and millions of others who believe it, all over the world.

    It's the Hillsong gospel.
    The Paula White / Benny Hinn gospel.
    The Max Lucado gospel.
    The Doug Batchelor gospel.
    The John Wesley gospel.
    The Dan Corner gospel.

    In other words, the "popular gospel".
    Does this not worry you, that you are in such large company, despite His word stating this?:

    " Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and
    few there be that find it. " ( Matthew 7:13-14 ).


    I'm worried for you, but there's nothing I can do further to help you see your error.:Sick
     
    #125 Dave Gilbert, Sep 1, 2019
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  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    If you believed God's Word you would believe the scriptures shared with you but it seems you do not. He who God sends speaks the words. Those who hear His Voice (the Word) believe and follow what God says those that do not are not God's Sheep (believers) and do not follow *JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12;MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28. God's Sheep (believers) hear His Voice (the Word), If I share His Word with you why do you not believe it?
     
  7. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    How about everlasting torment?

    Mark 9:43-48.
    Matthew 25:46.
    2 Thessalonians 1:9.
    Revelation 14:9-11.

    Do you believe that all who end up in the Lake of Fire are punished with everlasting torment and destruction?
     
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  8. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I agree, most wholeheartedly.
    @3rdAngel :
    Yes, or no?
     
    #128 Dave Gilbert, Sep 1, 2019
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  9. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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  10. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" ( Revelation 14:10 )

    If I share His word with you, do you believe it?

    I agree.
    Are you ignoring the above?

    With respect, do you think it needs "interpretation", or does it mean what it says?
    Here's more of the passage:

    " And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
    ( Revelation 14:9-11 )
     
    #130 Dave Gilbert, Sep 1, 2019
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  11. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    No, you don’t understand, I’ve dealt with those scriptures long ago, what I don’t do is waste my time to chase your proof-texting rabbit trails in circular arguments that attempt to weasel, I dealt with your conclusions in general in that they could not possibly mean that one no longer sins after salvation and should they sin they would lose their salvation, no longer be a son of God, as you falsely claim. I did that by showing that you have clearly missed the point in those scriptures as did the Jews likewise because like them there is a “stumbling block” directly in your path. I also further referred to Progressive Revelation in which if you did understand this process it would help you understand the reason why what you think are your wonderful-saving-worthy-works are filthy rags to the Lord. Finally, I demonstrated that even the saints did not meet your interpretations of qualifications within those scriptures. Yet you continue to abuse them while it is clear that your agenda here fails to recognize that the Good News is that grace is free because Jesus Christ paid the price when it was and is impossible for us to meet God’s standards, therefore as “revealed in the New Covenant” it is by faith alone that we receive His grace.

    We do not become little gods who are capable of not sinning when we are saved! That is your fantasy. Be honest, that is where you are headed “3rd Angel”. Which is why I said, “YOU are not Jesus!”, “YOU are a sinner who CONTINUES in sin, unless you would like to call God a liar?” and briefly went into Progressive Revelation and gave you Heb 10:4 and 1Cor 2-7-15 to demonstrate how you have “missed a major point of the Bible”.



    First, I am not disagreeing with God’s Words but rather your conclusions as to their meanings while I recognize that while you are trying to be a teacher of the meat of the Word you have great need to get back to the milk.



    It is rather funny that you would use these particular scriptures because in “truth” they refute your teaching right in line with what I have been saying about you being on a path of stumbling blocks along with the Pharisees who didn’t what to let go of the law and their own earning of salvation. Let’s take your proof-text and examine it:

    (Joh 10:1) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

    (The door spoken of here Is Christ. He is the only lawful entrance. Jesus called those “teachers” thieves and robbers – DO YOU NOT SEE YOUR RESEMBLANCE WITH THEM HERE?!)

    (Joh 10:2) But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

    (Jesus is saying the door belongs to Him alone, you need to be clear buddy, He doesn’t need your help (works) to open it!)

    (Joh 10:3) To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    (Jesus, and only Jesus is worthy of the door in which the true Pastor and His sheep enter. The sheep obey and follow Him BUT IN NO WAY are the sheep worthy to do so, it is by His righteousness ALONE that they enter.)

    (Joh 10:4) And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

    (The sheep follow Him in faith, that (their faith in Him) is what they believe in, they know His voice and the power of God – they have absolutely no, 0%, faith that they should try to make it through that door by any other means, especially their own merits.)

    You present verses that say the faithful believe His Words and follow Him and there is no problem with that but then you try to tack on required “obedience” that goes beyond faith and goes back to relying on their works in which attempt draw lines that can not be crossed and look for signs of merit – just like the Pharisees. Again, this is why I said you abuse these scriptures because you do not take into account the bigger picture in these teachings and have taken on the role of the Pharisees.

    Let’s get something clear, I do not disagree with any of God’s Words, what I disagree with is your interpretations! A proper understanding of Eph 2:8-9 would guide into the knowledge that His grace is free gift through faith and therein to become a FRUIT INSPECTOR becomes a means of boasting.

    Again, you attempt top change “obedience” into meriting thereby missing the point that by the law of obedience all fall short. If your focus is on the quality of “your obedience” the object of your faith is seriously messed up because it is by Christ’s obedience that we are saved! That there is the Good News revealed in the New Covenant.



    Hence, the message remains that faith that is without works is dead AND nothing has changed here as your works are dead except for in love and faith of what Christ has done for you is when your works bear fruit. Ah yes, the devils believe there is a God but they place hope in their own works for they do not love the truth that Jesus alone paid the price and has the ONLY lawful entrance to the door of salvation. Those devils that also believe there is a God are thieves and robbers – see the pattern forming and holding here about the Good News that Jesus Christ has done all the work that we can not and never could achieve salvation through as revealed in the NC?



    No, that is not all that written here by you, your agenda of teaching a works-based salvation is clear and it is heretical. There was a time when such teachings here would be answered with you being banned, as was with the Millennial Exclusionist who round-about taught of one earning his salvation, but apparently that has changed.



    Again, I DO NOT disagree with the scriptures and your begging the question that God’s Words line up with your interpretations DOES NOT support your fallacious argument that my argument is with God!



    Throughout your posts you are attempting to place conditions on faith by measuring it against one’s works. That is how you use the terms “follow” and “obedience” and you place “assurance” of salvation on the quality of the works. Yet, you have missed the point that the “quality” of YOUR and MY works will always fall short of opening that door, therein it is you who errors in the object of his faith, not us!


    Got to go. Hope that Helps.


    P.S.



    You misrepresent my words which asks if Paul was saved while he was a sinner. Not sure how you get that I implied he was save by his sin?

    After this you continue to abuse the scriptures while mixing in the revelations taught to the Jews that one is NOT saved by the works of the law while casting your interpretations of those scriptures against the teachings of Jesus that He paid the price in full and that their/our obedience DID NOT SAVE THEM but is the necessary OBJECT OF THEIR FAITH which is what saves us and this faith MUST BE in His work alone. Once again, this is the Good News and it is Good News because WE ALL FALL SHORT and will continue to sin as long as we are in these bodies. (BTW, I see you have avoided addressing how you rate sin-wise?) We die daily, YOU die daily, but thanks be to God that we have a Savior full of mercy and grace.

    I had to hurry but sincerely hope this helps clear up your confusion…

    ...I also noticed you didn't address the sin of those saints. I'd love to see you apply your teaching to them regarding them meeting your qualifications of holding their salvation?
     
    #131 Benjamin, Sep 1, 2019
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  12. Jesus Saves!

    Jesus Saves! Member

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    2 Corinthians 4:14-16 KJVS
    [14] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. [15] For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. [16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

    The outward man perishes because of sin. But the born again is renewed in Christ daily because he ever liveth to make intercession for the saints. When we mess up, he chastens us here so we are not judged with the world.
     
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Does unrepentant sinning mean that we cannot have ongoing sin issues?
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Actually, no you didn't you simply started talking about things that no one is talking about or has said or believed and ignored the scriptures and posts that disagree with you.
    Actually, no you didn't you simply started talking about things that no one is talking about or has said or believed and ignored the scriptures and posts that disagree with you.
    And here you go again talking about things no one has said or believes.
    And here you go again talking about things no one has said or believes.
    You have been provided God's Word. In response you provide your words which are not God's Word to argue against God's Word. Therefore your argument is with God not me. You are free to believe as you wish. We all answer only to God come judgment day. Only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4
    All I hear are your words arguing against God's Word. Only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4
    I see. So according to your interpretation of JOHN 10:1-2 JESUS is the door and he is the Shepard (JOHN 10:11), so in your view JESUS being the door and the Shepard, JESUS enters into himself? Nice start for your explanation of the scriptures. Probably no need to go any further here until you prayerfully study the scriptures you are trying to explain.
    Your promoting the faith of devils *JAMES 2:18-20; 26. No one believes God's Word without following what it says.
    You are free to believe and do as you wish. I do not judge you. Who are you trying to convince me, or yourself? We all answer only to God come judgment day.
    All I hear are your words arguing against God's Word. Only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4
    Keep telling yourself that. As I said earlier I do not judge you and you are free to believe as you wish. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
    Nope not at all. No one is saying what you are pretending they are. Gods Word however not me from GENESIS to REVELATION says that salvation and God's promises are conditional on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word *. JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-28; MATTHEW 10:38; JOHN 8:12; MATTHEW 4:20-22; MATTHEW 19:27-28.

    The rest of your post is more of your words arguing with God's so I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Maybe I will pray for you.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
     
    #134 3rdAngel, Sep 1, 2019
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  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Depends. Without JESUS we can do nothing but sin *JOHN 15:1-10; MATTHEW 9:12-13 because we are all sinners in need of a Saviour *ROMANS 3:9-10. It is only as we abide in Chrsit that we can resist temptation *1 JOHN 3:6. We will always be tempted to sin. The GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is that we have a Saviour who has given us the power over sin to save us from our sins *JOHN 8:31-36; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16. This is His work in us as we believe His Word *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; 4:13. Temptation is not sin; draw near to God and he will draw near to you, resist the devil and he will flee from you. God's Word is God's power of creation to make all things new. These things I write unto you that you sin not. If any man sins he has an advocate with the Father. It is only those who endure temptation to the end that receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12

    God bless
     
    #135 3rdAngel, Sep 1, 2019
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  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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  17. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 6:15 AM Pacific.
     
  18. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Again, you are not God and question begging your interpretations to be on that level is beyond fallacious. As per the rest of your post it merely dodges my arguments and is full of weaselers having no substance so not worth a going forward with, but thanks for the discussion.
     
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  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Sorry friend God's Word disagrees with you as you have been provided God's Word and God's Word is not my words. You are free to believe as you wish. We all answer only to God come judgment day. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed. Sadly though at that time it will be too late for many thinking all this time they had salvation only to find out they never knew him *MATTHEW 7:22-23. Thank you for the discussion too.
     
    #139 3rdAngel, Sep 2, 2019
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  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
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