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Can you define spiritual and physical death?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Roy1, Feb 19, 2004.

  1. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Sorry, but you have got this wrong.

    [/QUOTE]You obviously are intent on proving that a human spirit which is "born dead" must be quickened by God before it can respond to God. Well since you won't accept the truth, Just Go right ahead and prove it! [/qb][/QUOTE]

    I am looking to see if there is anyone out there that will show me that the spirit is born dead, that is in the physical sense that needs God to quicken it before it can respond.

    I believe that the spirit of man is born dead (separated from God), but that it is able to recognise the goodness of God and respond by accepting or rejecting God.

    I may have been playing devils advocate, but I wanted to if anyone has a reasonable argument to prove that the spirit is born dead (like a physical body). For so many have used the illustration I want to see if they have any proof.

    Roy. ;)
     
  2. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    OK, but there is no one who can prove that! There is no one with a stitch of evidence that a living human's spirit is dead!

    To the contrary the Author of Life says that the human spirit is the life of the flesh, to the point that if the spirit were dead, so too would be the flesh, hence, no life!
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    How about this breif thought?

    Paul uses death to typify "having no affect." After salvatiion Paul says that we are dead to sin, yet sin still does have an affect. Could dead in trespasses and sin from Ephesians 2 have the same type meaning, that before salvation we are dead to the work of God in our lives?
     
  4. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Yelsew,

    remember back in the garden. we are to learn what is the knowledge of Good and Evil. knowledge is to be a part of us.

    Is it the destruction of Evil?

    It is the choice made between good and evil. evil actions will still exist in the memories of mankind. they will never be erased for choices is what creates man. the knowledge of evil is a vital part of him.

    now your term of unbelief is confusing to me?.

    you only have two choices. believing of one choice is unbelieving in the other. I guess the end of unbelief is simply to change your original choice.

    I dont believe good is more powerful that evil.
    I do believe that good is more powerful than evil.

    dont It makes you believe in the word "by faith".
    (until the answers begin to become uncovered to you.)

    within the lake are many discriptors found. (its really not a lake, its a process of refining a soul.)

    like our lives today. we are being refined in this lake now.

    Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    some of these verses give a hint. the elect become teachers to those yet not chosen to see and hear. they have powers as they exist in absolute time to guide others through this same process that overcomers have passed through. yet there are also the vessels of wrath there also. bringing fear and doubt and the knowledge of evil to be chosen from..
    within this school, we have the vessels of mercy teaching Good. and we have the vessels of wrath teaching evil. and the undecided will choose between the two vessels to emulate and become.

    this is the inheritance of the church, yelsew. It is to be a part of bringing the harvest to fruition. it is to be an active part of this creation.
    Like Jesus. The church will become one with its members will. they will also have the powers expressed by jesus while he was on earth.
    the church is the Go-between the member and God.
    unlike the vessels of wrath that prove themselves an ignorant nuisance at the moment until its time for their eyes to become opened.


    define final?, man will ever be a changing entity.

    If you had the opportunity to enter into each persons life, examine their every thought and become friends with them. how long would that take?

    in absolute time. not even a second. in finite time. forever

    spiritual death is the humbling of ones will to become the supply of another. The church is asked to humble their will so that God may use their life to bring to supply the needs of another. and until every man woman and child understands the mercy of God and is educated into a full mature christian within the family of God. this process of being in the lake of fire will not be over.

    when we speak of the "day of the lord".
    This is it. It begins as we receive the seed within us from our father and it ends as we discover the last soul within the lake mature and made a complete image of Christ that he was destined to become.
    nobody leaves until everyones purpose has been accomplished. whats next, the kingdom is handed over to the father. and his purposes for the kingdom begins. (1 cor 15:28)

    you can say this is the "final" judgement,
    I havent thought about it much. [​IMG]
     
  5. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    The final judgment is the last point in time that an unbeliever will exist. Once judgment is executed against one, by that one being cast into the lake of fire, it is final, no retrieval, no recovery, and NO SALVATION!

    And it will be the whole essence of the person that is cast into the lake of fire, not just the unbelief, or anything less than the whole of the person.
     
  6. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2 New Member

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    GOOD THOUGHT! And quite applicable!
     
  7. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Yes Roger,
    Good thought, [​IMG] what took it so long [​IMG]

    Can you expand it a little?

    Looking forward to the face to face in May [​IMG]
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Sure it could mean that, but to assume so is mere speculation because to the Bible never draws out that meaning. Paul never explains it in this way.

    Plus, even if what you say is true who is to say that God's work of bringing the gospel, which HE calls, "the power of God unto Salvation" isn't enough to overcome that spiritual deadness in someones life? Who is to say that there has to be an additional secret inward irresistable call that the Bible never expounds upon to over come that deadness to which Paul refers?

    Still you have no proof, only speculation.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Roger,

    I see now you actually may be in agreement, but I think my post still applies to the Calvinistic perspective on the meaning of "dead in sin." [​IMG]
     
  10. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Skandelon

    Can you explain the Calvinistic view on dead in sin? or a dead spirit?

    It may help to solidify some the thoughts that I have been bouncing around the past few days.

    Roy
     
  11. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, this is still a germinating thought here. I'll let you know when I get it together. It's in my head, but not quite ready to put down here.

    And, BTW, you are right skan, it is still speculation, but I think there is something to where my speculation is going.

    Roger
     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Roy,

    Sure. Calvinists believe that Paul's references to being dead in sin must mean mankind is total unable to respond to the general calling of God through the gospel message. (Calvinists, feel free to correct me if that is wrong.)

    Sproul uses the old analogy of a man who is sick and dying and must take medicine, but then he turns it around and says, "How can a dead man take medicine." He uses this logic as proof that mankind in their deadness couldn't possibly respond. He also uses the analogy of a man drowning and needing to reach out and take the life preserver, but turns it around to say, "How can a dead man grab a life perserver? God sent his son to dive in after our dead corpses and rescue us without our wills having any part in the process." (these aren't direct quotes btw)

    I will admit at first glance these are very convincing illustrations. But they are just that, illustrations. There is not biblical linkage to being dead and being unable to respond to the powerful Holy Spirit wrought message of the cross. Calvinists have texts to support the fact that we don't seek God on our own initiative, we agree. But proof that we don't seek him is not proof that we can't respond when he seeks us through the powerful message of the gospel.

    If "dead" means "inability," then we must be unable to sin, because Paul also says we, as believers, are "dead to sin."

    What is the difference between being dead in sin and dead to it? Neither have to do with inability, both have to do with influence. Without Christ and the gospel, my only influence is sin, I'm dead to everything else because I have no knowledge of it, I'm not influenced by it. Make sense? In the same way once I become a believer I should not be influenced by sin any longer, I am becoming dead to it in that it has less and less influence in my life. As sin decreases Christ increases. This is the process of sancification where God puts to death my flesh. It doesn't happen overnight.

    I hope that helps.
     
  13. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Skandelon,

    The key question that I have been bouncing around is that of death. Trying to define what spiritual death is.

    As you have said, the illustrations are just that. Many Calvinists tend to fall on the inability to respond, but where does that come from?

    To try and use the illustration of physical death to represent spiritual death does not work, for the Jesus himself clearly teaches that such correlations are not right, John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    If anyone out there has more on the inability side I would love to hear it. What shows us that we are unable to respond?

    I will read through some other posts on this board to see if there are any other thoughts out there.

    Thanks,
    Roy.
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    FYI, there are a group of people in the scriptures who were unable to respond. Read about them in Acts 28:

    23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening. 24 Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe. 25 And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, 26 saying, `GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, "YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU F643 WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; 27 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM."' 28 "Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen." (Also, Matt. 13, Mark 4, John 12)

    These people WERE unable to see, hear, understand, believe and come to repentance in Christ.

    Who are they? Hardened Jews.

    Notice that they weren't born that way as Total Depravity teaches. They BECAME that way. And notice the word OTHERWISE in this passage. It shows what their ability would have been had they not BECOME hardened. This proves that men aren't born Totally depraved as Calvinists claim.

    Calvinists take passages in which the author refers to these hardened Jews inability to believe and apply them to the nature of all mankind at all times. That is the big mistake of Calvinistic doctrine.
     
  15. Roy1

    Roy1 New Member

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    Hi Skandelon,

    I agree the issue is not can a man be hardened to the point where he cannot respond. It is, was he born that way? It must be a resounding NO. If so then God has clearly lied from Genesis to Revelation. He has consistently called the nations to repent.

    Pr 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused ; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
    25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
    26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
    27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
    28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
    29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
    30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
    32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
    33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

    Why would He call if man could not respond? As man rejects the light of the gospel the heart grows harder. It must be obvious to all, the longer men reject Christ, the less likelihood there is of them being saved. It does not mean that it is impossible, statistically the percentages are slim.

    Roy.
     
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Roy,

    Exactly right! And the mistake Calvinists make is that they take teachings about a group of people who have been rejecting God and His ways for centuries and who have been judicially hardened in that state of rebellion and they apply it to the nature of all men from birth.

    Jesus said that we must become like a child if we are going to enter the kingdom of heaven.

    If Calvinists were right then this child would have been in the same condition as the hardened Jews were and that is just not the case. Children are receptive to the gospel, its only after years of rebellion and sin that one become hardened. They aren't born that way.
     
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