Capital Punishment ...

How many thousands of people have been killed by archers in our world's history?
How many by sword? How many by spear?

The argument is ridiculous.

Guns, bows and arrows, swords and spears are all tools used by human beings to kill. They are no more evil than the spoon you use to each your breakfast.

 

I have never killed anyone with a spoon. but I sure have with a gun. Never seen a crook enter a shop with a spoon, but tey sure do with guns.

I understand hunting. There is a need to balance nature, and there is nothing worse than seeing the carcas of a deer who starved in the winter because of an overabundance of deer.

I would never hunt, but my daughter does and she even does it on my property.

Cheers,

Jim

PS. Here endeth the first lesson...Time for that other American pasttime,,,,,,,,,,,coffee!

 

You're confusing the issue. I'm against innocent people dying. If there is doubt regarding someone's innocence or guilt, then they should not face execution.

However, I am not opposed to capital punishment.

FYI, I am not currently a pastor.

I am more concerned about the rehabilitation of people than their punishment, but consequences are usually the beginning of rehabilitation.

I don't know how many criminals you have dealt with in your life, but there's an enormous amount of self-justification that goes on in those situations.

In 1978, when I was a teenager, a man named Joe Dugas and his girlfriend, Linda May Burnett murdered the Phillips family about 10 miles from my home because Dugas was angry about his ex-wife (who was the daughter of the two oldest victims by not among those who were murdered). They invaded the family home while the victims were sitting down to dinner and took them at gunpoint (shotguns, by the way) to a shallow grace a few miles down the road. Dugas and Burnett took turns shooting the family members, one by one, with the shotguns. For the last victim, a three-year-old boy, they pulled the trigger together. Police investigated the crime and arrested the couple about a week later. Dugas and Burnett led officers to the shallow grave. (I was shocked to discover that Linda May Burnett was the mother of a girl I knew in my grade, and Joe Dugas was a cousin of my closest friend at the time.)

They were both convicted of the crime and sentenced to death. Dugas was shot and killed after stabbing an officer and trying to escape on the way to a dentist. After Dugas' death, Burnett filed an appeal and was granted a new trial. She was found guilty a second time and sentenced to 30 years in prison. Perhaps the jury didn't want to sentence a woman to die. (We had a lot of hand-wringing about the Karla Fay Tucker execution a few years back.) She continues to maintain her innocence although it is ridiculously unlikely.

I'm guessing she will walk out of prison within the next month or so (perhaps she is already out) to live free. In my opinion, that is wrong.

 

I have obligations I must attend to for the next eight hours or so, so I will not be able to participate in this discussion, much (if any) for a while.

But let me point out a few things.

1.) Much of your argument is based on the idea that execution is less of a punishment than life in prison. I submit to you that many people would not feel that way. Personally, the loss of freedom and incarceration with criminals who are willing to attack or even kill me at any time is something that would be worse than death to me.

2.) There are things worth dying for and sacrificing lives for. In a just conflict against evil, when a military commander orders his or her troops to take a position from an enemy determined to keep it, the commander knows that innocent people on both sides will likely be killed. However, the greater good of achieving the objective is more important than the lives of the people the commander leads. Those of us who support capital punishment understand that, occasionally, an innocent (often just less-guilty) person may die as a result of mistakes or corruption. With DNA testing and numerous safeguards, that is less likely to happen than every before. But capital punishment can have positive benefits on society.

 

I'm not sure where you got that from, but a lot more 1st century Christians were administered the death penalty by swords than by crosses.

If "the taking of another human being's life....is contrary to our Lord's teaching..," then according to Revelation 19:11-16, both Jesus Christ and "the armies which were in heaven [who] followed him" (19:14) will violate "our Lord's teaching" because "...out of his [Jesus's] mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he [Jesus] should smite the nations. (19:15)

It seems to me that you are confusing what God's Word forbade Christians as individuals to do [i.e., "...avenge not yourself..." Romans 12:19] with what He has ordained human governments to do [i.e., provide for a safe and orderly society, even to the extent putting to death those who commit a capital crime {Romans 13:4}].

 

God deals judgement, not Christians. We are commanded to love and perfect patience. I notice you failed to address the I Tim. passage.

When Jesus told the crowd in John 8, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her", He wasn't just shaming them. He was referring to the Old Testament law concerning execution. Deut. 17:6-7 "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; ...(7)The hand of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people..."

Jesus changed the law of execution. No longer can we execute based on witnesses, with the witnesses being the first to throw stones. The only one who can execute is the who who is without sin. That means only God has the wisdom to execute people, because only God is without sin. (bolded for emphasis, not yelling)

Not to be too bold, but I believe you are confusing your life as a citizen of the United States with your life as a Christian and a citizen of heaven.

We should live according to God's Word. We clearly have been commanded to demonstrate the perfect patience of Christ when dealing with the worst of sinners, even murderers.

Supporting the death of a human being, created in the image of God, is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Let the ungodly kill, via the government or whatever.

Let Christians love with perfect love.

peace to youraying:

 

In the context of Romans 13, the word "sword" is used as a symbol of authority, not as a symbol of execution.

We, as Christians are called to be different. We are commanded by our Lord Jesus to exibit the same kind of perfect patience with the worst of sinners (even murderers) as He demonstrated by showing mercy to Paul.

Supporting the death of someone is the opposite of "perfect patience". It is the opposite of showing mercy. It is the opposite of what our Lord Jesus commanded us to do.

Let the ungodly kill. Let Christians love with perfect love.

peace to youraying:

 

This thread has convinced me to abandon my support for capital punishment. In fact, this thread has also convinced me that it is a great injustice to imprison someone for life for a crime they did not commit. Since we are dealing with an imperfect criminal system, we are likely going to commit someone to life without parole for a crime they didn't commit. This is a grave injustice, and no Christian should support such a heinous atrocity. Therefore, we should eliminate all life without parole sentences, since there is a chance that we might imprison an innocent person for life.

In addition, I think it is also a grave injustice to sentence someone to prison for, let's say, 20 years for a crime they did not commit. This too is a grave injustice and no true Christian could support this, along with life without parole and c.p. Therefore, as Christians, we cannot support such injustice, since our flawed system will likely imprison someone for 20 years for a crime they did not commit. Amen.

Furthermore, it is grave injustice to imprison someone for 10 years for a crime they did not commit, along with 20 years, life sentence and c.p. All of these are grave injustices, and all of them should be eliminated to ensure that no innocent is ever abused by these heinous atrocities. Amen and Amen.

I feel like I have reached a new plateau in spiritual understanding now that I have abandoned my old ways of thinking. Thank you all, for your sage and impervious arguments that have convinced me of my previous error.

 

Rome executed the Jews by crucifixion.
Rome executed its citizens by beheading. Unless I'm mistaken, beheading was down with the sword, or something similar to it, not a cross.

 

You're welcome.

Don't thank me, however, thank God, Holy Spirit, for convicting you of the truth of scripture and of the command to love others, even the worst of sinners, with the same kind of perfect patience that Christ demonstrated when showing mercy to Paul.

May you continue to grow in the love of Christ until He comes again.

peace to youraying:

 

In the context of Romans 13, the word "sword" is referring to authority, not execution.

Romans executed criminals, slaves, and particularly those who encited rebellion by crucifixion.

You are correct, I believe, that Roman citizens were usually spared the cross.

peace to youraying:

 

I had a professor while in school, who would give this debate each year to his new class.
His answer after a week or so of debate was each of us would register pro or anti capital punishment.
If someone was murder in our family the one who did the crime would get if found guilty by how the family had registered. He even felt one should register for or against life or a max of 20 years or so. The only true way to see how one feels he felt was for the one to speak who had a child or a love one who was ripped apart and killed. Question he always ended with, was what should a person get if he raped your child and wife and killed them just to watch them died?

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

It's interesting to note what the renowned Baptist scholar of not only NT Greek but also of the various cultures of the NT era (Jewish, Greek & Roman) Kenneth S.Wuest, in his Romans in the Greek New Testament [(c) 1944] by the author and published by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company in 1966 as part of Vol. 1 of their 4 volume set Wuset's Word Studies From the Greek New Testament for the English Reader about what the word "sword" meant to the readers of Romans:

"As to the sword which the magistrate wears, Vincent says : 'Borne as a symbol of the magistrate's right to inflict capital punishment. Thus Ulpian, "They who rule a whole province, have the right to the sword."' The Emperor Trajan [r. AD 98-117] presented to a provincial governor, on starting for his province, a dagger, with the words, "For me. If I deserve it, in me.'" Alford comments: 'In ancient times and modern times, the sword has been carried before sovereigns. It betokens the power of capital punishment: and the reference to it here is among many testimonies the the any borne by Scripture against the attempt to abolish the infliction of the penalty of death for crime in Christian states."

Translation. [Romans 13:4] "But if you are habitually doing that which is evil, be fearing, for not in vain is he wearing the sword, for he is God's servant, an executor of wrath upon the one who practices the evil." (loc. cit., p. 225)

 

Double post. Sorry 'bout that!

 

As for the relevance of I Timothy 1:15-17, I agree that it ought to be the goal of individual Christians in every age, regardless of whether they were living under the authority of the 1st Century Roman Empire, or under the authority of 20th century fascist/Nazi/communist dictators, or a 21st Century Islamic nation governed by shiria law to [as Romans 12:18 puts it] "as much as lieth in you, live peacebly with all men."

OTOH, in this fallen world in which we live, there may come a time when even the most devout Christian husband or father may be required to protect his wife and children's lives by putting to death another human being who has invaded his home and openly (with weapon in hand) threatened their lives.

I suppose you'd consider that devout Christian husband/father as "ungodly" for doing what he had to do.

 

What about Gen. 9? Is this rescinded by Jesus? Jesus affirmed the OT scriptures.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet so maybe this was addressed already.

 

I've batted this around and never got to the bottom of it before a few weeks ago. I know God approved of capital punishment in the O.T., but what about after Christ? I think I found the answer the other day at church, hearing a message from Acts 5.

First, Christ had a mission when he came the first time and that was not judgement.

2nd, God the Father is the one who judges - but Christ will carry out His Father's will:

God did not hesitate to send a message to the N.T. Church concerning deceit toward God. He killed Annanias and Saphira on the spot, which is capital punishment:

As far as the mistakes that are made, those mistakes are the result of a sin-filled fallen world where there isn't perfect justice and there are no sinless people. God approved capital punishment in the O.T. and probably more errors were made then than now. I see capital punishment as a power of government/society, not something any individual gets to sentence on another individual. It is for the purpose of deterring others from the same crime. Otherwise, why did God make such a public spectacle of Ananias and Saphira?

 

So far, I have not said whether I am pro or con capital punishment, although I posted the Gen 9 passage in order to get comments on it.

I am not convinced that this passage in Jn 6 proves that Jesus changed the laws of execution. For one thing, there were no witnesses brought forward to confirm this woman's adultery (if indeed, she was an adulteress). For another, the Jews did not have the ability at that time to execute.

I think the point of the passage is not that Jesus was changing the laws of execution but that he was convicting the men who were there about their sin (I think it's possible the woman was innocent since no witnesses were presented).

I think to say that Jesus was changing the laws of execution here is going beyond the passage.