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Featured Carry your cross, follow Jesus, die to self -- for eternal life

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Samuels, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    All Scriptures below are from the NKJV …

    Mark 8:34-37
    “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake
    and the gospel’s (sake) will save it
    . For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world,
    and loses his own soul? (**)Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?”

    (**) “and is himself destroyed or lost”
    – see Luke 9:25 below
    “he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life” – see John 12:25 below

    “There is only one kind of true Christian; that is, a disciple … “You must deny yourself.” That means
    that to follow Christ a person must give up his own desires and live only according to Christ’s desire.We must deny our own pleasure, our own advantage, our own comfort … after we become Christians, we must live completely for God … we must be ready to suffer and die for Him. Suffering and persecution will come to all who follow Christ (John 15:19, 2 Timothy 3:12). There can be no crown without the cross. … Whoever denies Christ in order to save his life (his life in this world, his pleasures, his pride, his honor and reputation, his possessions, his physical life) will lose his life (his true life, spiritual life, eternal life). But, whoever loses his life for Christ (that is, his life in this world, his pride, his honor, his possessions, his physical life itself) will save his life; he will obtain true spiritual life, eternal life. To lose one’s life for Christ and the Gospel means to deny one’s self and take up (one’s) cross and follow Jesus.”
    … The Applied New Testament Commentary – Thomas Hale, 1996, ChariotVictor Publishing
    (Dr. Hale is a Spirit-filled believer who served as a medical missionary with Interserve in Nepal.)


    Matthew 10:38-39
    “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
    He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.”


    Matthew 16:24-26
    “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?
    Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?”


    Luke 9:23-25
    “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?”


    Luke 14:26-27,33
    “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children,
    brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
    And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
    … whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.”


    John 12:25-26
    “He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.”


    “But we all must ‘die’ to ourselves. Our old sinful self must die, otherwise we shall not be able to bear fruit for Christ (Mark 8:34-35, Romans 6:2-6, Galatians 5:24) … Jesus didn’t mean we must actually ‘hate’ ourselves. Rather He was saying that our love for Him must be so great that, in comparison, our love for ourselves will seem like hate (Luke 14:26). Indeed, we cannot love our old sinful self and Christ at the same time (Matthew 6:24).”
    … The Applied New Testament Commentary – Thomas Hale, 1996, ChariotVictor Publishing


    The cross was the Roman method of carrying out the death sentence.
    The prisoner was made to carry his own cross to the place of execution.
    A Christian is called to carry his cross daily while dying to self -- to be given eternal life
    (reference: the NT).
     
    #1 Samuels, Jan 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  2. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Is this before or after purgatory?

    "All of our righteousness is as filthy rags."

    "For by Grace we are saved through Faith, not of works lest any man should boast..."

    It is faith in the completed work of Jesus at Calvary that gets one into heaven.

    Have you sold all your stuff and given the money to the poor?

    "He that hath the Son hath life"

    "No one can pluck them from The Father's hand.

    "These things have I written unto, that you may know that you have eternal life"

    There is something blatantly false about salvation maintained by good works. Grace, Grace, wonderful Grace. That is UNMERITED favor for sure.

    Dr. Hale's comments may be spirit filled--the question is: which spirit?

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Great please address and explain the verses in the op as you personally see them.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Yes, repentance is a lifelong process and the believer should wear out that path to the Father. The cross, by the way, was not restricted to the Romans. Insofar as the Jews are concerned, they used crucifixion prior to the Roman Empire.

    This does not seem to be in the correct category. Did you mean to place it in the Cal/Arm debate section (both Calvinists and Arminians affirm those passages....although neither believes that we earn eternal life)?
     
  5. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Both Calvinists and Arminians sit side by side in many/most western churches!
    However, today an enormous percentage of these fine folks are habitually sinning!
    This is the truth because they are members of the Laodicean church (Rev 3).

    The difference between "believers" today and those hundreds of years ago is incredible.
    Ditto for the totally unsaved non-believers.
    Years ago, these ones were desperately searching for spiritual truth.
    And thus, multitudes were really OPEN to the Truth ... and received it.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    True Christian do not habitual sin though, but we do still sin after being saved!
     
  7. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Yes, it was and is wonderful.

    However, James, that which was initially given must be appreciated enough to be maintained.
    And not taken for granted.
    The free grace which you initially received is nowhere guaranteed to last forever.
    You have a part to play in your salvation.
    Your co-operation is required.

    There are 100+ warnings in the NT about what is required.
    And some of them clearly warn of losing salvation.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NONE due when understand in their proper context!
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I agree that there is a problem in many of our churches, and I agree that this problem is related to the loss of the doctrine of holiness. But I still do not see why this is in the Cal/Arm section (In American, most evangelical churches....which comprise, for now, the larger churches...are neither Calvinistic or Arminian).

    You are right that this is an issue. I just see it an issue for the contemporary church rather than those defined by these two positions.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Samuels seems to b saying thouhh hat many Christians are not really saved, as they still are sinning!
     
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Your the only one saying that Yeshua.

    The bible teaches to stop sinning. The apostles repeatedly condemn sinning and tell people to stop sinning.

    I want to hear your comeback, Well gee Paul, John and Peter are you sinless?




    The bible says we have to stop sinning.
    So whats your answer?
    SHOOT THE MESSENGER-->Samuel.



    The problem is there is folks here with a sin they can't fix like divorce. So the best way to wash their hands of this sin is give themselves license to sin.


    EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES. In fact you never own up to have ever sinned yourself..... Its God's fault because he doesn't want to get rid of my "sin nature"



    Notice no one is challenging the bible verses, no one is telling us another meaning to what they say.

    Instead of cleaning up ourselves make sure someone else is dirty.

    That's why we all better attack the character......"Samuel your a sinner"
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Where does the Bible state that we must stop sinning in orde to be saved by God?
     
  13. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well you and I might have differ understanding of being "saved" means.

    For example:
    I think you need to be IN TROUBLE......to be saved.

    I don't think you have to be saint at ALL to be saved.

    Did you call the fire department today because your house IS NOT on fire?



    To enter HEAVEN, However, SINNERS are not allowed in HEAVEN.

    Now let me provide you scripture that say this.

    Revelations 21

    27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


    Sinning is a NO-NO.

    Heaven = sin bad Okay?



    Why do you think there is sinning in heaven?
     
  14. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    I am certainly no expert, but I thought most large non-Baptist churches are Arminian.
     
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Yeshua,

    Suppose I hand you a box and inside this box is a Jesus signed certificate that your saved, It would be a sin against faith in Christ to assure yourself by having to look in the box.

    So holding on to any assurances is already a sin in itself.


    Faith and Trust is pretty much the same thing. Someone who has trust in Jesus has other more important things then "what is in it for me" and prioritizing salvation.


    You need a shift in your priorities.

    Matthew 25

    34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

    What value do you put on doing things for GOD?

    Doing good works does good things for God. If you just look at it and say well doing these things is not going to earn me 5 dollars, its not going to earn me Disneyland tickets, its not going to earn me salvation..........you are missing the point.
     
  16. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    I wish someone somewhere could read and understand Romans 6:16-23.
    Paul offers a choice:
    Be a slave of obedience, which results in righteousness and holiness and eternal life,
    or ...
    Be a slave of sin, which results in eternal death.

    It is so slam-dunk easy to see (for me anyway).

    Kinda like seeing the complete idiocy of RCC doctrine.
    Just how can those people have been so blind all of those years?
    Answer: Satan's deceptions, leadership greed, man's mis-placed trust in man, etc.
     
    #16 Samuels, Jan 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  17. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    What gave you that idea? They are not Calvinistic but they are also not Arminian.
     
  18. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Sorry, I thought Arminian was to believe ...
    man has free will to choose to believe Jesus and His Gospel.

    Which I do not believe.
     
    #18 Samuels, Jan 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The Remonstrance:

    Article 3
    That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”
     
  20. Samuels

    Samuels Member
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    Good olde Article 3.
    But, I prefer to quote the NT verses which combined say:
    man is totally unable to choose Jesus and His Gospel
    w/o first receiving a tiny seed of faith from God.
     
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