1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Catholic Inventions?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Living4Him, Jun 22, 2005.

  1. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    0
    {quote]L4H, Perhaps then, you ought to get past the thinking of an 8 year old, and get on with the meat of the word of God.[/quote]

    See, no matter what I say, you will disagree ;)


    {quote]...that are totally unproveable in the Bible; doctrines that take away from the grace of God; doctrines that deny salvation through grace by faith; doctrines that say that Jesus death was not necessary or sufficent for our sins.[/quote]

    Now, you are just adding your own ideas here. The doctrines do not take away from the Grace of God.

    The sacraments fill us with more of God's graces.

    Christ sacrifice on Calvary redeemed the entire world. But, that doesn't mean that everyone is automatically going to heaven. The Mass pours out the boundless, redemptive power of the Sacrifice of the Cross. The Mass is the single most effective source of the grace by which Christ distributes the blessings of Calvary.

    The bodily effects of Holy Communion are:
    1. A corporal union with Christ.
    2. The weakening of concupisences through a growing mastery of passion, and
    3. an increase in on's title to eternal happiness after the resurrection of the body in heavenly glory.
     
  2. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,713
    Likes Received:
    1
    TP,

    So...Jesus said its literally His flesh.

    So, you Catholics literally eat Jesus every Sunday, because after all He literally said that His flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed, right?

    So...you dont mind if I send someone over to take a sample of one of the crackers and take it to a lab for a DNA test, so it will come back as being some type of human/Diety type of flesh, and not a wheat cracker?

    I mean, it literally is His flesh, right?

    You are literally eating His body, right?

    No? You dont want me to do the lab test for DNA? Because it will come back as being a wheat cracker?

    I know I know. I've heard it before. The cracker and wine literally become Christs literal flesh and His literal blood, BUT...they still retain the form of the "accidents", meaning the cracker and the wine.

    Thats a neat trick. And very convenient.

    It really is His body...except when its tested, and then its a cracker. But once the test is over it goes back to being His body again. Until someone else wants to do a test...then its a cracker again.

    It *kinda* IS literally His flesh...when we want it to be! But its *kinda* NOT literally His flesh...when it might cause a problem! But then when the problem...the lab people...go away, it *kinda* IS literally His flesh again!

    I gotta give you guys credit...you've got all the bases covered. But I guess that would figure...you've had 1700 years to work out all these little problems.

    Sadly,

    Mike
     
  3. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    0
    Numerous Eucharistic miracles have authenticated the real presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament since earliest times in the Church. 1300 years ago in Lanciano, Italy, for example, the host was changed to real flesh and the wine was changed into blood - all this has been verified and documented by scientists. The miracle is still ongoing.

    In the Holy Eucharist Jesus humbly assumes the appearance of bread. On occasions God's children have not always appreciated His presence, having abused the gift by receiving it unworthily or treating the Sacrament with indifference. For these reasons, perhaps, God has seen fit to prove His real presence through Eucharistic miracles.

    In the city of Lanciano, Italy, around the year 700 of Our Lord there was a priest of the order of St. Basil who, though learned in the sciences of the world, was ignorant in ways of God, and was not strong in his faith. He was plagued by a doubt as to whether the consecrated Host was truly the Body of Christ, and the consecrated wine truly His Blood. He had difficulty believing in the mystery of transubstantiation (the miraculous changing of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ).

    One morning, as he was celebrating Mass, he had already said the most holy words of consecration ("This is My Body..., This is my Blood..."), as Jesus had taught it to his Apostles, his doubts and errors weighed upon him more heavily than ever. By a most singular and marvelous grace, he saw the Bread changed into Flesh and the wine into Blood.
    Frightened and confused by such a great and stupendous Miracle, he stood quite a while as if in a divine ecstasy; but eventually, his fear gave way to the spiritual happiness that filled his soul, and he turned his joyful yet tearful face to those around him, exclaiming "...Behold the Flesh and the blood of our Most Beloved Christ."

    At those words, the bystanders ran to the altar and began, with tears, to cry for mercy. The faithful, who, having become witnesses themselves, spread the news throughout the entire city.

    Today twelve centuries after the miraculous occurrence it remains intact, a sustained miracle! Upon a superficial examination, the Host of Flesh, which is still in one piece and has retained the dimensions of the original "Large Host", has a fibrous appearance and a brown color, which becomes light-reddish if one places a light in the back of the Ostensorium.
    The blood, contained in the chalice, has an earthly color, inclined toward the yellow of ocher, and consists of five coagulated globules. Each of the parts is uneven in shape and size, and when weighed together, the total weight is equal to that of each piece.

    The actual spot of the miracle is located beneath the present day tabernacle of the Church of St. Francis. The Miracle Itself is preserved in the second tabernacle, which is found in the high altar. The Host, now changed to Flesh, is contained in a silver Monstrance. The wine, now changed to Blood, is contained in a crystal chalice.

    Scientific Studies

    A rigorous scientific analysis was performed in 1970-71 by Professor Dr. Odorardo, University Professor in anatomy and pathological histology and in chemistry and clinical microscopy, Head Physician of the United Hospitals of Arezzo. Prof. Linoli was assisted by Prof. Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, a Professor Emeritus of anatomy at the University of Siena.

    The research done on the fragments of the Blood and the Flesh yielded the following results:

    The Blood of the Eucharistic Miracle is real blood and the Flesh is real flesh.
    The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the myocardium (heart wall).
    The Blood and the Flesh belong to the human species.
    The blood type is identical in the Blood and in the Flesh, type AB.
    The proteins in the blood are in the same proportions as those found in normal fresh blood.
    There is no trace whatsoever of any materials or agents used for preservation of flesh or blood.

    Science, when called to testify, has confirmed what we have believed in Faith and what the Catholic Church has taught for the last 2,000 years; echoing the words of Christ, "My Flesh is real food; my Blood real drink. Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood dwells continually in Me and I dwell in him."-John 6:56-57
     
  4. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The scripture reference for:"Jesus, the lamb of God before the foundation of the world" is: I Peter 1:18-20,"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,..."

    That is KJV. The Douay-Confraternity says about the same. This is also an interesting scripture regarding "traditions of the fathers". This is given by "The Rock" through "the pebble".

    What is the response to the allegation that the drinking of blood is a pagan ritual?

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  5. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings

    You joked: take it to a lab for a DNA test

    Response: You and all atheists are working together. you see, that is the exact same aruement atheists make against the Incarnation. DNA tests of Jesus would not prove he is divine. Jesus was Just a man, you cannot prove scientifically he was God. If we had Jesus in a lab, he would just be a normal human being just like anyone else. Do deny the eucharist on this basis is also to make a slam dunk against the incarnation. biblical arguements, tradition arguements, etc are Okay in our discussion. But science cannot be used to prove faith.
    peace
     
  6. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    0
    The below is taken from Faith Facts by the CUF.org

     
  7. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    Not quite--it is you come back to your misinterpretations of the Bible every time since you can't refute the correct interpretation which has been amply demonstrated. Perhaps it is you who should try believing the Bible sometime. :cool:
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Not quite--it is you come back to your misinterpretations of the Bible every time since you can't refute the correct interpretation which has been amply demonstrated. Perhaps it is you who should try believing the Bible sometime. :cool: </font>[/QUOTE]I do. The very fact that all of you with one accord spew out whatever the Magesterium orders you to, is proof enough that you don't have a mind of your own to study the Scriptures on your own to find out what it really says. At least I study the Bible. I know what I believe and why I believe it. So do you. You may or may not know what you believe. But if you don't you look to the Magesterium. And that is the reason you believe it. You don't beleive anything because the Bible says it, but because the Magesterium says it to be so.
    But the Magesterium has proved itself to be wrong on many things. And yet you will blindly follow it any way: the blind leading the blind. There is no SS, even though that is amply demonstrated in Scripture. There is a direct disobedience to study the Scriptures even though that command is oft repeated in Scriptures, and the command that goes with it to interpret it for yourself as well.
    There is no command to allow the Magesterium to interpret Scripture for you. That is just absurd.
    I know what I beieve, because I have studied the Bible, and the Holy Spirit has led me in my study of the Scriptures. How strange it must seem to you that on issues concerning salvation and the nature of God, some basic issues where we disagree: people with backgrounds as diverse as Charismatic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Word of Life, and even SDA, will agee with me when using sola scriptura as a basis to work with.
    DHK
     
  9. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,831
    Likes Received:
    4
    Christ's deity was not something that supposedly changed physical matter into something else. God (Deity) is spirit, and spirit cannot be detected physically. Now, if you're suggesting His body was really spirit, that's what the gnostics and other Monophysites said, and it is called "the doctrine of antichrist". And if you're saying that Christ occupies the bread and wine in the form of a spirit, spirit is not confined to space like we are. The only spiritual "presence" of God/Christ is the Holy Spirit, which is in us (hence, us partaking the meal as one Body; Christ has a spiritual "real presence" there!)
    But funny, how your side nevertheless comes up with a scientific "proof" claim anyway!
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    I'm not Roman Catholic. Therefore the "Magisterium" doesn't "order" me to do anything. :D


    So He's led you to come to some diametrically opposed conclusions on key issues to which He has led other Christians?
    "I don't think so, Tim". [​IMG]

    What I do think is strange is that on many key issues, using the supposedly objective means of sola Scriptura (oh, and the Holy Spirit's guidance, of course) you've come to different conclusions than many, many of your "brothers" resulting in schismatic fellowships and that somehow you think this relativism and denominationalsim is Spirit led. How sad.
    (And there are many using sola Scriptura to support beliefs in unitarian or modalistic god as well. Don't forget the differences between the Calvinist and Arminian concepts of god--one is selectively loving, and one is all-loving--as well.
    Psst(!)--D28, this is where you chime in about "checks and balances" and how it's "a beautiful thing"... :cool: )
     
  11. violet

    violet Guest

    Why did the Ethiopian eunich ask that the Scriptures be explained to him? Why doesn't Philip just tell him to ask the Holy Spirit to tell him what it meant?
     
  12. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    Good question! [​IMG]
     
  13. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    59
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the genes--if the DNA of Jesus and Joseph(the husband of Mary) were available, I have no doubt the results would indicate that Joseph was not the father. Some would have us to believe the father was a Roman soldier. That too, is purely hypothetical and speculative.

    The conception of Jesus was a unique event in history. John said: "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld Him, the only begotten of The Father..."

    To suggest that the Holy Spirit, which overshadowed Mary, left a DNA trail borders the absurd. Jesus is all man--born of a woman. He is all God--conceived by the Holy Spirit.(theos + anthropos). Mankind is just corrupted clay.

    Such a miraculous event has never been demonstrated in a laboratory--nor does it need to be.

    Jesus told the Jewish leaders: "If you do not believe that I Am that I am, you will die in your sins." Their response was to try to stone Him--for blasphemy--He makes himself to be God.

    Jesus is either God in the flesh, or He is the greatest imposter ever.

    Whether these things can be demonstrated in the laboratory or not is irrelevant.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  14. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,713
    Likes Received:
    1
    Doubting Thomas,

    That is regarding nonfoundational issues where we are given freedom regarding our convictions by Almighty God Himself. Needless to say, there is much much much shared truth in both differing views, with only a few areas of disagreement.

    And of course God told us in advance about these things, and he DID NOT say anything like...

    "BE SURE AND GET A MAJESTERIUM TOGETHER TO COMMAND EVERYONE WHAT TO BELIEVE!!!"

    Rather, He said...

    "Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...why do you judge your brother?...to his own master he stands or falls, and God will make Him stand"

    We can believe God or we can...to our ruin...strip people of their God given freedom and put in force a Gestapo...I mean Magesterium...to control them and command them what they must believe.

    The results are there to be observed, and in light of that the choice is easy.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  15. violet

    violet Guest

    That is regarding nonfoundational issues where we are given freedom regarding our convictions by Almighty God Himself. Needless to say, there is much much much shared truth in both differing views, with only a few areas of disagreement.

    And of course God told us in advance about these things, and he DID NOT say anything like...

    "BE SURE AND GET A MAJESTERIUM TOGETHER TO COMMAND EVERYONE WHAT TO BELIEVE!!!"

    Rather, He said...

    "Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...why do you judge your brother?...to his own master he stands or falls, and God will make Him stand"

    We can believe God or we can...to our ruin...strip people of their God given freedom and put in force a Gestapo...I mean Magesterium...to control them and command them what they must believe.

    The results are there to be observed, and in light of that the choice is easy.

    God bless,

    Mike
    </font>[/QUOTE]God said this:
    Into ALL Truth-- not some. Not a smogasboard of beliefs to pick and choose from.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    In Acts 17:11 we have gentiles who like the Ethiopian DO believe in the ONE TRUE GOd and DO read the scriptures of the ONE TRUE GOD.

    When the teaching of scripture is explained to them they don't simply swallow "Whatever a heretic might say about it" -- as if they were so easily duped. Rather the Holy Spirit works with them and they USE the scriptrues to "SEE IF those things are so".

    In both the cases they are learning something new - something they did not understand before. IN both cases they are combing the scriptures with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to SEE that what they are being told "is so".

    There is no case of "be duped by every person that comes along" as "God's model"!!

    The RC argument is that if LEARNING occurs AT ALL in the context of something you are told - then why not put the Bible on the shelf as "untrustworthy for doctrinal validation" and just believe whatever you are told. They recreate the "Mormon model" over and over again.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    That is regarding nonfoundational issues where we are given freedom regarding our convictions by Almighty God Himself. </font>[/QUOTE]Of course, whether they are "nonfoundational" or not is the issue for debate. You say they are not, but there are others (SS advocates) with whom you claim to agree who would suggest that there are certain "foundational" views that you actually deny. Such as Baptismal regeneration (Lutherans, some Anglicans, Church of Christ, etc.); Or the "real presence" (Lutherans, some Anglicans); or whether salvation can indeed be forfeited (the vast majority of Christians through the ages have affirmed this). So many different groups, using "sola Scriptura" have actually arrived at a different set of foundational beliefs from each other which has led to and maintained divisions in Christendom. They would deny that some of the things that you so flippantly dispense with "well, let each one just be convinced in his own mind" are in fact dispensible for salvation. (This is not to mention the Oneness Pentecostals who using "sola Scriptura" have denied the Holy Trinity and would suggest that "trinitarianism" is "nonfoundational")

    Now you can limit the "foundationals" to only those things that you think are "foundational", in which case "those who agree on the foundationals" turn out to be only the ones who actually agree with you on what is considered, "foundational". You really can't escape the tautology.

    Yet some of those areas of "disagreement" are considered "foundational" by the other "sola Scriptura" denominations. And these differences--"foundational" or not--are enough to keep Christians divided into schismatic, competing denominations against the wishes of Christ.
     
  18. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,618
    Likes Received:
    7
    However, it was the Apostolic Preaching that illumined the OT for these Bereans. Had they not heard this and received it, they likely would have continued to misinterpret the OT in the manner of the other nonbelieving Jews.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I am agreeing that teaching/learning something new can easily "Also come" from outside sources guided by the Holy Spirit in addition to the Holy Spirit working directly with the individual as they read scripture.

    I am simply pointing out that the RC model of "magesterium has the Holy Spirit - you do not so you have to believe whatever anyone says who claims to have authority" is not Biblical.

    The Holy Spirit works with EACH person as they read scripture and guides EACH into all truth. This basic part of the New Covenant promise itself!! Read it in Heb 8.

    The fact that truth is ALSO conveyed by the Holy Spirit through the evangelistic work of Spirit filled evangelists does not "challenge" or contradict the individual work of the Holy Spirit.

    But EVEN in the case of an Apostle speaking to a NON-Christian - it was the role of the Holy Spirit to SHOW the non-Christian IN SCRIPTURE whether or not the APOSTLE is telling the truth. And obviously the non-Christian does not know to start with - that this person CLAIMING to be an Apostle is actually telling the truth!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    1. God uses men to do his work. He gave the great commission, not to the Catholic Church, but to all genuine believers in Christ:

    Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
    --This, of course, goes directly against the monastic life allowable by the Catholic Church.

    2. God commanded Philip specifically to go to the Eunuch.

    Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
    --Who said the Holy Spirit wasn't involved.
    As I said, The Holy Spirit uses men. He could have used angels but he didn't. He could have used an authoritative voice booming out of heaven, but he didn't. He could crack people over the head with a baseball bat, but he doesn't. He uses men to carry out his great commission, and that is what Philip was doing. He was doing then, what we are commanded today to do. His method has not changed.

    3. His method has not changed in that Philip used SS. He used only the Bible to lead the Ethiopian to the Lord. He used the very Scripture that the Eunuch was reading "and preached unto him Christ." One preacher said, "Christ can be found on every page of the Bible." But to the unsaved, "who are spiritually discerned," he cannot be found, and the truths of the Bible are a mystery to him. Thus God uses men (believers) to preach the gospel to them. What was Paul's commisssion:

    1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

    Paul knew about the serious consequences of neglecting the duty of not preaching the gospel. It is the duty of every Christian to preach the gospel, to carry out the Great Commission. This is what Philip was doing. It is not God's method to send the Holy Spirit and direct an unsaved man to salvation. He uses other men.
    DHK
     
Loading...