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Catholics and Muslims Worship Together

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by John Gilmore, Aug 13, 2003.

  1. yod

    yod Member

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    Hey Lorilai

    I agree with you about darkness not having fellowship with light. But where do we draw the line in your opinion?

    Those ecumenical gatherings give me the willies too. Yet I sort of see a need for basic respect of all people at some level.


    The Pope says;
    I think this is a reasonable statement I could agree with depending on "what" they bear witness to. I also think if we are bold about the gospel at these ecumenical gatherings, everyone gets saved or leaves mad.

    Which is ok, too [​IMG]
     
  2. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Stuff like this is why I did not want any parts of the Roman rite of Catholicism when I converted. From time to time, they seem to have lost their minds.

    In the Orthodox Faith, we have a rather rich tradition of being killed like sheep by the Muslims. Such an "interfaith" service would not be very welcome in our praxis.

    And I agree with the Protestants on this thread. Just reading the Scriptures in someone's hearing is hardly enough. Did not the Ethopian eunuch say to Steven "How can I understand except someone explain it to me?." Muslims do not have a real clear concept of personal sin and their inability to reach God by themselves. To "worship" with these people violates Scripture and gives them a false hope that they are somehow "okay with 'god'". And that just ain't so!!!

    Sadly, this kind of mindset seems to be becoming quite universal in the Church, even our Eastern rite. I have been trying to start and evangelism outreach in our neighborhood and so far....zilch. But even if I do get something going...I am SURE that I will most likely be the only one out knocking on doors and leaving literature.

    Yeah, we Catholics can knock the Protestants all we want for their doctrines, but at least they act like they really truly believe that people without Jesus are going to spend eternity in a really terrible place.

    It is way beyond time that the Roman rite knock off this nonsense and get back to tellin people like the Muslims that they are LOST and accepting the persecution which will inevitably go with such presentation of the truth!!

    Postscript: I have attended RCC groups where this sort of drivel comes out and is excused under the banner of "love." (I don't go anymore -- they nauseate me.) I would ask them (and anyone else who has read this and might be offended by my stridentness)

    Is it "love" to encourage someone in lies, deceit, and falsehood?

    Is it "love" for another to make them feel good on their way to hell?

    Is it "love" to allow them to worship a false god and be imprisoned by a false system?

    How well would the Early Church have grown if the Early Fathers had practiced such compromise with error, falsehood, and demon inspired religions?
     
  3. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore New Member

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    I agree with everything you say except that it is not a Catholic versus Protestant issue. The same thinking is equally prevalent among both groups.

    My own church-body, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, will likely split because one of our Pastors prayed with pagans after 9-11. His message at the Yankee Stadium prayer service gave the impression that Christianity is just another way to heaven.
     
  4. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Catholic Convert,

    Keep preachin brother, you were just getting good . . .
     
  5. yod

    yod Member

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    Amen to all of that!

    Woe to us if we aren't clearly proclaiming the gospel to every creature....

    For the record I agree that it simply is not possible to "worship" in union with anyone who is not regenerated through being born again....but back to my original question.

    Where do we draw that line? In other words are there any kinds of gatherings where we can promote a basic understanding and trust between religious groups?

    I don't believe that every muslim is bloodthirsty because I know quite of them who aren't. In the same way we could tear down stereotypes of christianity just by being people that muslims/jews/otherwise can talk to in a civilized manner though we have serious disagreements on who Jesus is. I witnessed a jewish woman come to faith in Jesus last June because she attended such a meeting and started asking questions about what we believe.

    Is it possible to have these events without watering down our message? I think it is...though most of these ecumenical gatherings disturb me.
    :eek:
     
  6. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    What understanding and trust can you find in a religion that sends people to hell? Unfortunately these so called "gatherings" are not about tolerance but acceptance. Accpetance seems to be the definition of tolerance today and in order to better understand them you are expected to come to some point of admission that their religion is legitimate. As christians we simply cannot do that.

    Let me clarify something, this is in regard to religious meetings and is in regard to religions. If we totally separate ourselves from society then we cannot witness to the lost and ever share the gospel message of Christ's once for all sacrifice for sins and the newness of life that we receive from Him as we are filled with His Spirit.

    For instance, my daughter has Down Syndrome and I am a in a DS support group. I would not leave the group if an Islamic family joined our group. Our group is about dealing with Down Syndrome, not our faith. I might come to love and respect this family. It is not wrong to respect a person of another faith, but you cannot respect their false religion that is deceiving them into an eternity of hell, not scripturally anyway. In fact, there would be no better way for me share my love for them then to share the truth with them in an attitude of gentleness and love. Along with telling them the truth we should live it in our lives day by day so they can see the fruits of what God's love can really do!

    ~Lorelei
     
  7. yod

    yod Member

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    it's not legitimizing a false religion to say that someone has the legitimate right to be in one if they choose. It's the highway to hell but all have the freewill to choose. This is also where I have to know beforehand whether I will be required to condone falsehood before attending one of these rallies. Sometimes being in the audience condones this...sometimes it doesn't.

    I'm not disagreeing with your overall premise but if God accepts us like we are and THEN changes us, how can we show others that we are not expecting them to "clean up" before we can seen in public with them? I am not defending ecumenical gatherings for the sake of gathering. Still, I think it's on a case-by-case basis.


    How do we then promote peace between peoples of different religions? How do we get them to see that we are for their good if we won't join with them at some level? Political rallies are MUCH worse in my opinion because the spiritual aspect is denied completely.

    The Crusaders tried to force all people into their brand of truth....fanatical muslim groups are trying today....but there is surely a better way.
     
  8. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Keep preachin brother, you were just getting good . . .

    I am sure that I stand in line with the Early Fathers of the Church in desiring to see all men saved and come to the knowledge of God. I am equally sure that while they proclaimed the love of God to all men, in that God lowered Himself to become man and die for the sins of the world, they also proclaimed the whole council of God, including those scriptures which do the unpleasant warning of eternal torments to come for the unrepentant and wicked.

    Thank you for the encouragement, but I wrote that almost in tears. Every day I see people around me and wonder about them: what is your relationship to the Lord? Is He your Savior? Do you rest in Him and trust Him for your salvation?

    Sadly, most sadly, I would say that the answer in the vast majority of cases is no. I often think that the twentieth century sent more people to hell than any other in the history of mankind, not only because of the sheer numbers of people on earth, but because of the testimony of wickedness we have of the world of that century.

    How terribly, terribly sad.

    May God have mercy upon us all, and may each and every one on this board trust in, rest in, and DECLARE Jesus to a dying world around us.

    And may God help me to do what I have encouraged other to do.
     
  9. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Yod:
    The Crusaders were fighting back the invaders of the Holy Land and Europe and the Christian east. Do you realize the Muslims were as far west and north as Spain and southern France? The purpose of the Christian Crusades was not to convert, although that would have been great, but to fight back. If the Christian Crusades had not fought back, the world today would be Islamic. It is that simple.

    The Crusades were not about going to them in their territory and trying to convert them by force. This is not history. President Bush made the "mistake" of comparing our response to 911, the War on Terror, as a modern day Crusade. He was correct, but not politally correct.

    God Bless
     
  10. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Well, I've learned one thing from this thread, and that is not to hang out with non-Christians. Band together men! ;)

    I mean, who wants to become yoked with unbelievers; we shall not commune with the heathen!
     
  11. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Can you show me a biblical example where anyone "joined with" other religions in order to make peace. An example that was ordained by God? Did the Israelis ever work with the worshipers of Baal in order to get peace? Would God have allowed that? Did the apostles compromise with the Jews who were killing them for their beliefs? I think not.

    Christ said we would be persecuted just as he was. He never said to avoid that persecution we should find a way to find peace with the false religions around us.

    The only way to promote true peace is to introduce the world to the true God. Unfortunately the Bible tells us that this isn't going to happen until Christ comes again.

    The Crusaders were wrong for Christianity cannot be spread through force and they were in opposition to the religion they professed in doing so.

    Muslims however are being true to their religion by doing these terrorists acts. We can't get them to live peaceably while still being a muslim. A muslim is promised many things when they die in the act of killing their enemies. They are promised rewards for doing so. You can't live peaceably with that kind of religion. Those who are living peacably as a muslim are not being true to their religion nor are they following the example of Mohammad. The idea that the terrorists are "radicals" or "extremists" is a lie. They are in fact "fundamentalists" because they are living by the fundamentals of the faith. These are "true" muslims. They are believing all that the Koran says, not just some of it. Unfortunately, because of this idea that we need "tolerance" it is not politically correct to point this fact out.

    ~Lorelei
     
  12. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I can give you many verses that tell us to be separate from those who are not 'like minded' but I cannot find one verse that says we are to join in worship with those who do not worship the One True God.

    Diane
     
  13. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Diane,

    You wrote, "I cannot find one verse that says we are to join in worship with those who do not worship the One True God."

    I encourage you to read through the Acts of the Apostles where Peter, John, and Paul are shown to go to synagogue & pray with the Jews who were unbelievers in Christ. You see, the Jews rejected the Trinity, yet they believed in the one True God, and yet the Apostles didn't have a problem worshipping with them - of course, they preached the Gospel to them, but that's besides the point - they worshipped with those who did worship the one True God, even though their understanding of that God was deficient.

    Muslims are much like Jews in the respect that they worship only the one True God - that's their big hangup with Christianity! We seem to say that Jesus is God and that there is a plurality in God - and the Muslims are so adament that there is only ONE TRUE GOD - and so when we worship alongside them, we are doing just what Paul, John, and Peter did in Acts - AND, these services included a Christian sermon as well as Gospel readings (you know, the truth about Jesus Christ?!)..

    so enough of this "The Biiiiiiible ain't tellin' me dis is coooooorect. We's need to depart from da heaaaaathen!"
     
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    The disciples followed their Master by going into the Temple as He did. Remember Jesus was considered a rabbis and had access. Also, keep in mind that the disciples went into the temple not primarly to worship but to evangelize and instruct the people in the new forms of worship and belief. There going into the Temple was in pre-Pentecost times when the church had not yet been established in Israel and Asia Minor.

    Even some of the people who have posted ideas about Catholocism have rightly told us, as we also knew, that Christianity was erected on O.T. beliefs about the one true and Almighty God.

    You don't get it. Islam is a wicked and pagan religion. Study and you shall see!
     
  15. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Stop being a smart aleck, Carson. You know good and dern well that we are ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED from worship with pagans. What don't you get about that?

    Hangin' out and worshipping are TWO VASTLY DIFFERENT THINGS and YOU KNOW IT!!!

    I am beyond stunned that you would try to equate modern Muslims with first century Jewsduring the transistional stage in Jerusalem from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was not completely closed yet and the New Covenant was not completely in force yet. Acts is an extremely transistional book and certainly not a good one upon which to base a foundation of eklessiastical praxis.

    You see, the Jews rejected the Trinity, yet they believed in the one True God, and yet the Apostles didn't have a problem worshipping with them - of course, they preached the Gospel to them, but that's besides the point - they worshipped with those who did worship the one True God, even though their understanding of that God was deficient.

    The demon moon "god" allah is NOT the same as the one true God of the Old Testamtent. Furthermore, until the completion of the Old Covenant in AD 70, the Jews were being given one more chance to repent and turn to Christ as evidence by the parable of the Fig Tree in which the owner said "let it alone. Dung it for one more year and then if it bear not fruit -CUT IT DOWN (which happened in AD 70).

    And as for your comment that preaching the Gospel was "besides the point", would you care to take that back? I'm sure upon reflection you don't mean that to sound as bad as it sounds, right?

    Once the Jews severed themselves from the New Covenant by repeated persecutions of the Christians, the Christians shook the dust from their robes and told the Jews "your blood be upon your own heads...from now on we go to the Jews." and no longer went into temples to worship.

    STOP trying to justify GROSS DISOBEDIENCE by making absurd statements. It won't wash. We have no more propriety worshipping today in a Jewish temple than we would in going into a Muslim mosque. Both of them are temples of false worship and Christ denying.

    If the Catholic Faith wish to reach out to Protestants and bring them back to the fullness of the truth, shennanigans like this are going to have to STOP!!

    Carson, you have never been Protestant nor Anabaptist, so you cannot understand the mindset. Fidelity to Christ is EVERYTHING for these folks, and it should be for us also. We are judged by them as to how we are faithful to Him. The Latin rite only makes it harder to reach out to Protestants with the fullness of the Faith when the Protestants see this sort of thing happening on a regular basis.
     
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Islam is a world religion, Christianity is NOT!

    Christians are to live in the world but not be of the world! Muslims are to live in and be of the world.

    There is nothing in Islam that separates the adherant from this world, as there is in Christianity. Yes, Islam claims there is a heaven ruled by one god, but it is not the same same heaven as that of Christianity. In the Islamic Heaven there will be sexual activity without the benefit of marriage...a celestial whorehouse if you will.

    Islam is diametrically opposed to Christianity. They are not even on parallel courses leading to the same end. Islam is a dictatorial religion that can only truly succeed in a dictatorial world government. That is the ultimate goal of Islam, world dominance and its resultant dictatorship.

    Islam is very much like "the great deception". Don't fall for it!
     
  17. yod

    yod Member

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    Acts 10:28

    He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.
     
  18. yod

    yod Member

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    Let's call a truce here.

    I don't think anyone is advocating worship with those who don't believe in Jesus. I thought that was clear in the first sentence of what I posted before.

    The question was how can we build trust (for the purpose of communication) with people in other religions if we refuse to even be seen with them?

    Calling them pagans doesn't make us any different than muslims who call us infidels.

    Loving your neighbor means getting down in the dirt with them sometimes. Loving your enemy means at LEAST talking to them at a basic level of respect.

    I would not attend any kind of ecumenical "worship" gathering but I see nothing wrong with trying to build bridges of understanding between the PEOPLE in these different religions. It gives me a chance to explain what I believe and why. What they do with it is their decision....
     
  19. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Brother Ed,

    I didn't know you were more Catholic than the Pope? ;) Cool! That's amazing.. I thought that was an impossible feat, but you've apparently gone and done it.

    I am beyond stunned that you would try to equate modern Muslims with first century Jews

    If both worship the one true God and if that is my equation, then it is appropriate, and you shouldn't be stunned.

    The demon moon "god" allah is NOT the same as the one true God of the Old Testamtent.

    The Catholic Church teaches that Muslims worship the same God as we do. She taught this, infallibly, in her Dogmatic Constitution on the Church at the Second Vatican Council in Lumen Gentium, article 16:

    "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."

    I'm just being a Catholic, Ed, and I certainly won't apologize for it. [​IMG]

    And as for your comment that preaching the Gospel was "besides the point", would you care to take that back?

    Not at all. The subject of whether the Gospel was preached is besides "the point", which is the point I was making: that we can worship alongside Muslims. Whether or not we preach the Gospel has nothing to do with whether or not we can worship alongside Muslims strictly put. That isn't to say that preaching the Gospel is paramount, but it still is another point.. therefore, besides "the point" I was making. You have to read what I say "in context"; it allows for communication.

    the Christians shook the dust from their robes and told the Jews "your blood be upon your own heads...from now on we go to the Jews." and no longer went into temples to worship.

    Actually, we no longer went into the Temple (I am not familiar with Jewish "temples" in the plural, as you put it) and the synagogues because Christians were kicked out for preaching Christ. If we were still allowed to enter, I'm sure Catholics would do so and preach Christ crucified in the same way that my former college roommate goes to Pentecostal churches (e.g, AOG churches) to preach the fullness of the Christian faith as found in Catholicism. We are still go to the Jews and preach the Gospel to them. All are in need of the Gospel, not just the Gentiles, brother. The Old Covenant expects, looks forward to, and needs the New Covenant.

    Also, the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that "the Old Covenant has never been revoked" (paragraph 121). This is actually drawn from a homily our Holy Father gave on Nov. 17, 1980 in Mainz, Germany.

    The Old Covenant cannot be revoked because it points the Jewish people to Christ. To revoke this Covenant would be to undermine and destroy the only path open to them as a people to encounter the Messiah who is Christ Jesus.

    The Latin rite only makes it harder to reach out to Protestants

    I would suggest that you are barking up the wrong tree by targeting "the Latin rite"; your argument lies with our Holy Father and the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, which is composed of 22 equal rites.
     
  20. yod

    yod Member

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    Hey Carson,

    Even Muslims will tell you that the one "true god" they worship is not the same one we worship. That is why we are the "infidels"

    Since that is their perspective then who are we to argue that they do?

    if Catholics are taught that they are worshipping the same god as the muslims then maybe we should be giving you the gospel?

    :eek:


    I didn't realize that anyone here thought it was OK to "worship" with the muslims. That is spiritually impossible without joining yourself to them...unless they all get born again.

    It would not be as much of a stretch for christians and jews to pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. The jews would be as uncomfortable about that as christians....but it's definetely not the same as praying to the god of Muhammed.
     
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