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Catholics and Muslims

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by neal4christ, May 27, 2003.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    They don't. This is nothing more than another veiled anti-Jewish statement. Jews worship the God of the Torah. Christians worship the same God of the Torah through the Blood of Jesus Christ. Muslims worship the ancient Moon God. The father god was the Moon, the mother god was the sun, and their offspring were the three stars. He was also the god of war. As evidenced by seeing the sword and the crescent moon on nearly every Muslim country's flag.

    Where in the Quran is the greatest commandment, Johnv? And what is the greatest commandment found in the Torah and the Bible?

    And why Islam teach to kill (slay) the people of the book - referring to Jews and Christians - if we all worship the same God? You'll find no reference in the Bible for Christians to kill Jews.

    We've been down this road many times before in many threads, yet you continue to defend the demonic religion of Islam. Is that what you are learning in your "Baptist church?"

    Remind me to send an email to your pastor, if so.
    :rolleyes:
     
  2. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    I agree, one must be careful when using the term anti-Semite. I guess what I should use is anti-Jew or anti-Israel because the Arabs are Semites also.

    I dont consider my self a bigot or prejudiced, just experienced. The RC church is and has been historically Jew haters and against the present state of Israel (although ther may have been a handful of exceptions but generally speaking) and that you cant deny.
     
  3. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Well, it would be rare, I suppose, to find a bigot who actually thought themselves as such. [​IMG]
    Perhaps you would better understand the error in your statement if I were to make a similar one concerning the present and historical attitude of Baptists towards those of Arfican descent.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    PS 104:
    Historically:

    The chief rabbi to the Vatican, Zolli, converted to Catholicism after WWII.

    The famous Jewish scientist, Albert Einstein, was reported in Time magazine (Dec.23, 1940)to have said:
    ``Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.''

    Golda Meir:

    ``We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. . . . During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims''(Golda Meir, Israeli representative to the U.N. and future prime minister of Israel).

    There is much more, I could continue post.

    Regarding US and State of Israel Relations:

    http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00rs0

    The Catholic Church is a supporter of the State of Israel and has good relations with it.


    God Bless

    [ May 28, 2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
  5. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Is it really right to call it worship when they deny revealed truth of this one they claim to worship? Are they not then worshipping a God they have created?

    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]Neal,

    Take a look at Acts 17. Paul makes a statement that is very similar to the one in the Catechism that you are protesting.

    Acts 17:22-23
    So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
    "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

    He recognises what it good in the religion of the Athenians and uses it to explain the true God. The Catechism is not saying that you can deny Christ and get away with it. It is simply recognizing what we have in common with them. The idea of one God.
     
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    No, they are defined by the fact that they worship Allah, the moon god, and the Quran wasn't in existance until some 600 years after Christ.
    Allah is not a moon god. That is a complete falsehood that has been refuted numerous times on this board.

    So, all Muslims are children of Abraham? Even Filipinos and Chinese? NOT! Don't you mean Arabs? The word "Arab" and "Muslim" are not interchangeable.
    I'll give you that. Generally, Arabs are Muslims. Just as generally, Jews are Hebrew. There are Chinese and Filipino Jews as well, who are converts, and are not children of Abraham.

    Name a "Muslim" who is a Christian. There are Arabs who are Christian who may have been former Muslims, but there are no Muslim Christians.
    My grandmother was one. My best friend attends church with a Muslim couple who have accepted Christ as their savior, and also occaisionally attend a Muslim mosque. My neighbor is open to accepting that Jesus is the Messiah and Christ, mostly through conversations I've had with him, and he's a Muslim.

    Please, your stretch to defend Allah boggles the mind!
    I don't defend. I've never asserted anything other than Christ being sole giver of salvation. It's unfortunate, however, than any attempt to have a difference of opinion on the subject, or to correct information, is met with such a hostile and ungodly attitude by you.

    [ May 28, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
  7. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    I really don't think I'm being hostile. Just factual. John, your allegations have been refuted many times on this board. Allah is not the same as Jehovah or YHWH. The concept and roots of Islam were taken by Mohammed from the gods worshipped by Arabs (not Jews or Christians). There are many historical links to bear this out, even by former Muslims.

    Yet you continue to promote your false beliefs here and expect us to accept them as truth.

    As far as being "ungodly" in attitude, it is ungodly to attribute things of Satan to things of God. Islam is a satanic religion based on the rantings of an illiterate hallucinatory wannabe prophet. Islam is leading millions of people to an eternal hell.
     
  8. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I really don't think I'm being hostile. Just factual.
    You can be factual without being hostile.

    John, your allegations have been refuted many times on this board.
    Name one.

    Allah is not the same as Jehovah or YHWH.
    That's not factual It's opinion. BTW - Jehovah isn't found in the Bible, and is not God's name. Allah, otoh, is found in Arabic bibles used by Christians and Jews.

    As far as being "ungodly" in attitude, it is ungodly to attribute things of Satan to things of God.
    By that reckoning, Judaism is also Satanic, since it denies Christ and therefore has a false view of God. Therefore, you should refrain from attributing Judaism to God.

    Islam is leading millions of people to an eternal hell.
    So is Judaism.
     
  9. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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  10. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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  11. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Thank-you, Thess. [​IMG] I hadn't thought of that for some reason. I stand corrected.

    The first thing that comes to my mind is do the Jews and Muslims worship out of ignorance or of rejection of the truth? Don't many Jews realize that Jesus came and what He claimed? And what of Mohammad, wasn't he aware of Christians and what they taught concerning Christ? I am not trying to argue with you Thess, I really do appreciate your post. These are just the logical questions that follow in my mind. I know that we may not be able to get an objective answer to them, but what do you think?

    Neal
     
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    That doesn't answer my question, which is, name something that I've said that has been refuted ON THIS BOARD. Besides, I don't have speakers. Additionally, the website you listed is run by a non-Christian pro-Isreili. In other words, someone who openly rejects Christ. I don't consider this site an objective source for information about the Islamic philosophy. I've posted comments from Jewish rabbis in the past regarding incorrect OT messianic prophecy, and been told that Jews today have a false view of the God of the Bible. So I fail to see why it can be had both ways.
     
  13. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The first thing that comes to my mind is do the Jews and Muslims worship out of ignorance or of rejection of the truth? Don't many Jews realize that Jesus came and what He claimed? And what of Mohammad, wasn't he aware of Christians and what they taught concerning Christ?

    Personally, I feel they worship out of ignorance. Then again, there are probably aspects of our own faith practices that are just as ignorant. I highly doubt that God holds these agaist us in regards to salvation. Some Jews do recognize the Jesus was the Messiah of the OT. Of them, some have left Judaism in favor of mainline Christianity, and some continue to practice Judaism as they had before. The same is true of Muslims. There are some that recognize and accept Jesus as the OT Messiah. Of those, some have left the Islamic practices, and some consinue to practice. Although, I imagine that it's a less frequent occurrence than amongst Judaism. As mentioned prior, I personally know of Jews and Muslims that have done both.

    As far as Mohammed, yes, IMO he would have been familiar with the Jewish and Christian customs in the area. But "hearing about" Jesus, for example, is by no means the same as truly hearing the Gospel. Most people in the US have "heard of" Jesus, but have not heard the Gospel.
     
  14. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Thank-you, Thess. [​IMG] I hadn't thought of that for some reason. I stand corrected.

    The first thing that comes to my mind is do the Jews and Muslims worship out of ignorance or of rejection of the truth? Don't many Jews realize that Jesus came and what He claimed? And what of Mohammad, wasn't he aware of Christians and what they taught concerning Christ? I am not trying to argue with you Thess, I really do appreciate your post. These are just the logical questions that follow in my mind. I know that we may not be able to get an objective answer to them, but what do you think?

    Neal
    </font>[/QUOTE]I think that we cannot judge the outcome of any man's soul because we do not know what light has been given to each. It takes a God to judge.

    Luke 12:47-48
    "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
    but the one WHO DID NOT KNOW it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, WILL RECIEVE BUT FEW. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

    It is hard to know what any individual is culpable for and what they are not. The three wise men were not Christian or Jew and yet they were following God in following the star. Cornelius before Peter came to him was said to be a righteous man.

    Acts 10:22
    They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man

    He quite apparently did not know all about the God we know for Peter had to preach to him. Peter starts out saying:


    Acts 10:34
    Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
    but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

    Now he says this to a group of men who have not known all the details of his Trinitarian God. Yet I think this verse goes well with Romans 2:14-15 where it says:

    Romans 2:14-15
    For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

    And it is by grace that they are able to do these things instinctively ("Law written on their hearts" by God).


    Note that Cornelius's part is open to the Gospel and recieve baptism. But before that it says:

    "every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him."

    We cannot know if someone does not know the truth out of ignorance or not. That is why God leaves the final judgement up to himself. What we are called to do is to preach the Gospel to them as if they are damned "that they might have life and have it more abundantly."

    Blessings

    [ May 28, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
     
  15. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Okay, I was not saying that. But they reject the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Thus, that is no longer ignorance, but rejection. There is a big difference, IMHO. And no, I am not saying all Muslims know about the claims of Christ, but I would guess Mohammed probably did. Thus his religion is founded on rejection, not ignorance.

    By the way, I have never heard of a Muslim who receives Christ yet continues in Islam. Interesting. It just doesn't seem very compatible. I might have to do a little digging to see what I can find. If you know of any links, I would appreciate it.

    Neal
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    We cannot know if someone does not know the truth out of ignorance or not. That is why God leaves the final judgement up to himself. What we are called to do is to preach the Gospel...
    Indeed, wise words wisely spoken.

    But they reject the truth that Jesus is the Son of God.
    Well, Muslims are generally told thet Jesus is not the Son of God. But if you look at the Islamic understanding of what they think we see as the Trinity, it becomes a little more understandable. From their point of view, a trinity presumes that there are three gods instead of one. If this were correct, they'd be right, as there is only one God. Heck, even for us, having a clear understanding of the Godhead in the Trinity can be a difficult concept. Likewise, to the Jews, the idea of having three Gods is repulsive, as it should be, for there is only one God. I'm not saying the Jewish and Islamic views are okay, just that they're understandable.

    By the way, I have never heard of a Muslim who receives Christ yet continues in Islam. Interesting. It just doesn't seem very compatible.
    In all fairness, on the surface, I'd be inclined to agree. But having known a few, and having had a family member who did just that, it simply reasserts what we've always known which is that Jesus lives in the heart, not in buildings or religious affiliations.

    All the more reason to leave the judgement of a person's heart to God.
     
  17. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    I agree totally. But that life will be changed, it will not remain the same as before the person became a Christian.

    What do you think of Mohammed and Christ? You said what you think of individual Muslims and what they are taught (which I tried to cover in my previous post because I knew it would be brought up [​IMG] ), but what of the religion itself? Wasn't it based upon rejection of the claims of Christ, which is truth, instead of ignorance? Mohammed sure seemed to know what Christ claimed, at least it seems so from the little that I have looked at the Koran. So isn't it a religion based on rejection of the claims of Christ? How, then, can it be compatible with the truth?

    Neal
     
  18. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    I have heard that Mohammed may have only known Christianity from followers of the Arian heresy which was prevalent in that area. If this is true, it is logical that Muslims don't believe Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

    God Bless
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You said what you think of individual Muslims and what they are taught (which I tried to cover in my previous post because I knew it would be brought up ), but what of the religion itself?

    I think the religion itself, at least as far as Jesus and the trinity are concerned, are incorrect in their teaching. Same with Jewish teachings concerning Jesus and the Trinity. But there are things withn the religions that are inline with biblical teachings. That doesn't make their beliefs regarding Jesus and the Trinity correct, though.

    I'm not sure what you were asking about in regards to Mohammed and Christ. Christ is part of the Godhead. Mohammed was just a man. While Islam doesn't believe that Jesus was part of the Godhead, it doesn't believe anything other than Mohammed being a man.
     
  20. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Link- Excerpts from Encyclopedia Britannica

    Question, Johnv:

    Why do Muslim countries carry the symbols of the crescent moon or three stars or sword on their flags, if there is no significance to the "moon god?"


    What is the greatest commandment in the Quran?

    Why would the Quran change the Holy Scriptures in the Torah and Bible OT re: Abraham and Isaac sacrifice to be that of Abraham and Ishmael? EID - Clearly, it was done on purpose, an alteration of the original Scriptures !

    History documents that Muhammad's new religion was not accepted by Jews and Christians in Mecca which is why he went to Medina. After he gathered his own following in Medina, he then went and slew his Jewish & Christian "brothers" in Mecca.

    Where did this illiterate nomad, Mohammed, acquire enough education to write the Quran?
     
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