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Caught up (most commonly called rapture)

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Seth3, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. Seth3

    Seth3 New Member

    Sep 14, 2004
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    Heres a Copy paste from an interesting link. I copy pasted this only "half way" through the explaination because it was way too long.Ofcourse there will always be disagreement on points but the Spirit will show you these as you test all things and hold fast to what is good. But here's some thoughts perhaps not considered concerning what is frequently called "the rapture" from the word, "Caught up". One mans veiw of things.

    This is posted for "discussion purposes only"

    Its long but bear with it, it gets interesting.


    "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage...and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; Then shall two be i the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And...there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mt. 24:37-40 & 51).

    This is a passage of scripture that has been popularized as being foundational scriptures for substantiating the rapture teachings. Many horrible sermons and stories have been fostered from these words Jesus spoke some two thousand years ago. We don't have the time, nor does space allow us to go into the sum of what has been conceived in the minds of men concerning this subject. Suffice it to say, the precepts were birthed out of the misleading hearts of two Jesuit priests, then nurtured by the carnal minded, until it grew into the earth-swallowing flood that is today. Nevertheless, truth will push back the overflowing waters and open vistas reality to those seeking it.

    During the days of Noah, when he went into the ark and the flood came, who do we suppose were the ones taken? We believe anyone who is seriously looking for the truth, when they read the verses above, will conclude that it was the ungodly merrymakers who were taken away -- not, and we repeat, N-O-T Noah. Noah was not taken and judged of God nor was he removed from the midst of the judgment; but rather, he went into the ark, the protective hand of God. He did not escape the flood, but endured it. When it had run its course he then set up a new kingdom (new beginnings) upon the earth, and the elect will do the same at the commencement of this new age. The ones who were taken, however, were those who God had taken and judged with the flood. Therefore, when we read, "As the days of Noah were, so shall ALSO the coming of the Son of man be," we should be able to come to the same conclusion as any rational minded person and see that the ones taken at the end of this age are the ungodly, and they will be judged accordingly. There is one main difference -- in Noah's day the people were judged by water, but in this day IT IS BY FIRE that they are judged, but this fire, we should know, is not the fire we cook our beans over or warm our homes with.

    When we read that two are in the field and one is taken and the other is left, and when two are grinding at the mill and one is taken and the other is left (verses 40-41), never let it enter our formidable minds that the ones taken are the chosen of God. There is no place in holy writ that tells us, encourages us, or even suggests that His overcomers ever flee from the face of the enemy, i.e. by way of a "rapture" or any other means. The written word doesn't even hint that God's plan for His mighty army of overcomers are to sound the retreat when the Lord Himself trumpets the charging, battle cry within the recesses of our souls. It is very common, however, to read of the victorious events that have transpired throughout all the past ages when humble men of God were endowed with His holy spirit; and everyone of them conquered by advancing into the camp and face of their enemies. They did not overcome by running and hiding or flying away some where in the sky. Even the four lepers that set the Syrian army to flight did it by advancing toward and into their camp. "For the Lord had made the host of the Syrians to hear a noise of chariots, and noise of horses, even the noise of a great host, and they fled for their life." (II Kings 6:24-33 & 7:1-. It is the same today, we conquer by advancing when we hear the battle cry of our Lord, the Captain of our deliverance. But never, and we repeat, NEVER do we pack our bags and withdraw from the enemy we are called to destroy.

    If we should take the time to read Mt. 24:36-51, and read it very carefully, we would soon see that those taken are the same ones who are CUT ASUNDER and their portion is that of the hypocrites. With this being so, do we still want to be among those who are taken? No doubt, some of us may very well be part of that company; but if we are, it would be a good idea to be prepared for something much different than formerly assumed. Hopefully, however, all who read these words, including myself, will be with those who are not taken and judged, even those "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his Lord hath made ruler over His household, to give them meat in due season." (verse 45). These faithful ones, as the context reads, are those who are not taken into judgment, and neither are they taken and removed from the earth, but they are those who REMAIN right here on this great planet and rule over it with righteousness, peace and joy in the holy ghost -- which, incidentally, is the kingdom of God. (Rom. 14:17).


    "Because thou hast KEPT the WORD of my patience, I also WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH." (Rev. 3:10).

    This has been one of the primary verses used to support a physical flying away into the heavens. Let us examine it and see if this should be.

    There are four words in this verse that merit attention -- WORD, KEEP, TEMPTATION and DWELL:

    WORD...in this verse is translated from the Greek word LOGOS. It is a spoken word that carries the thought and intent of the speaker, a divine expression of the substance of God (Heb. 1:3), clarification or explanation of something. The sacred Logos connects humanity with deity, it brings forth truth and reality. Logos can be equated with God.

    KEEP...comes from the Greek word teros, and the Latin word for teros is terracea from which we get our English word terrace. The principle word (teros) has the meaning of to watch over, to attend to carefully, to protect, to keep in view, to guard, to apply oneself to.

    TEMPTATION...comes from peirasmos which means to try, to test, to scrutinize, to discipline, to prove.

    DWELL...simply means to reside, to cohabit, to occupy a house permanently, and it comes from the Greek word katoikeo.

    (Definitions are from Strong's Exhaustive Conc., Theological Dictionary of The New Testament by Kittle and Friedrich, and Thayer's Greek - English Lexicon of The New Testament.)

    Let us now take the liberty and translate Rev. 3:10 from what we have learned about the above words: "Because when My Word of patience, THE ENDURING LOGOS, the very essence of Myself became a reality to you, you WATCHED OVER, PROTECTED and APPLIED YOURSELF WHOLLY TO IT and never faltered while it was being tested and proven with fire. Likewise, in the same manner I WILL WATCH OVER, PROTECT and APPLY MYSELF WHOLLY TO YOU in the hour when all those whose DWELLING PLACES are that of the earth are TESTED with the fires and shakings that I will send."

    That WORD, THE LOGOS OF GOD, is the very thing that brings us to such a place of peace. It is not the letter that killeth which we are to keep but THE REALITY OF HIS SUBSTANCE. It is this Word, THE LOGOS, that the Bible speaks of concerning Jesus. It tells us, "In the beginning was the WORD (THE LOGOS)...and the WORD (THE LOGOS) WAS GOD...and THE WORD (THE LOGOS) WAS MADE FLESH...." (Jn. 1:1 & 14). We are also told that He was "...The brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON (EXPRESSION OF HIS SUBSTANCE, Grk)." (Heb. 1:3). And let us not forget, those who overcame the dragon and his angels in that heavenly war of Revelation twelve done so "...by the WORD (LOGOS) of their testimony." (Rev. 12:11). We will notice one more verse -- "If a man KEEP (TEROS) My SAYING (LOGOS), he shall never see death." (Jn. 8:51).

    The key to being not hurt by the wrath of God (Rev. 19:15), the wrath of the devil (Rev. 12:12), or any other wrath or calamity that might befall the world, is not getting out of the mess but by awakening to the reality of the logos of God within and becoming one with Him. When we know who and what we are, that selfsame word ("...as He is so are we in this world") (I Jn. 4:17), we can then let the storms rage and the waves roll, for in such peaceful assurance we can lie down in the midst of it all and go to sleep, even as our Lord had done when He was with the twelve. And if need be, we will be able to say peace be still and the winds will obey our voice. Go ahead, you fearful, and fly away, but for me and my house, our desire is to remain and be part of the answer to creations cry (Rom. 8:19-21).

    The context and words are clear in Revelation 3:10. We were not being told of a plan God has devised to remove His people from the face of hard times. What He has related to us is how those who had already gone through His proving fires would be immune to them when they came upon the whole world. He was telling us of a spiritual condition or realm the faithful ones would be dwelling in during those days rather than being in a particular location. When we have the King of kings and the Lord of lords residing within, and we are ruling with Him from the heavens, from the mind of the anointing, no matter where we might be or where we geographically go, we will be in paradise, and we will take it with us.

    It is basic but very essential to understand what it means to dwell in the earth or to dwell in the heavens. From what we have personally noticed, the number is very great who haven't the foggiest notion that one can have their feet on the earth but yet be living in heaven. Jesus made this evident when he told Nicodemus that "...No man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (Jn. 3:13). He also said, "And now I am no more in the world...." (Jn. 17:11). He had His feet planted firmly upon the earth, but in reality his place of habitation was IN HEAVEN. Beloved, that was where He lived! His home was in the Father whose living quarters are in the realms of heaven!

    If Jesus dwelled in the heavens with His Father, then what about us? Can we likewise live in such a place today, while our feet walk life's dusty avenues? The written word says yes: "God...hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath RAISED US UP together, and made us SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES (in the heavens, Grk) IN CHRIST JESUS." (Eph. 2:4-6). And, "If ye then BE RISEN WITH CHRIST...WHERE CHRIST SITTETH ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, set your affection on things ABOVE, not on things on the earth (i.e. DWELL in the heavens and not on the earth). For ye are dead, and your life IS HID WITH CHRIST IN GOD. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and HATH TRANSLATED US INTO THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON." (Col. 3:1-3 & 1:13). (Parenthesis my own). Therefore, in the light of this, can we not conclude, since we are IN CHRIST who IS IN GOD and DWELLS IN THE HEAVENS, that when our affections are on those heavenly things, we LIKEWISE ARE DWELLING IN THE HEAVENS and not the earth? Yes indeed we can and emphatically should come to such a conclusion! For if we don't, we will forever be dragging our lower lips in the dirt and becoming progressively despondent, because it looks like we are destined to live all our lives in this cruel old world and then die before the "blessed hope" of the rapture comes. What a sad state of being to be in, but there are untold thousands who are graphically existing in that very thing.

    Christians are wanting to fly away and escape the wrath of Satan so badly that they think God wants the same thing. They have had such a misconception of who or what the devil is and who they and God are not, it is a wonder we don't hear them proclaiming, "The Lord Satan Almighty." Well, in reality, this is what we keep hearing their imaginations declare even if it is not the exact words coming from their lips. Christendom has not only swung into the lethargic ebbs of despondency but also of fearfulness, and they have created doctrines to fit their fears as well as their fantasies.

    While the preachers and students of the rapture are promoting their beliefs, the written word and God's Spirit of reality are resounding something much differently. Along with Rev. 3:10, "...I will also KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth," we also have Jesus saying, "I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that THOU SHOULDEST KEEP (teros) THEM FROM THE EVIL." (Jn. 17:15). We read also in this same chapter of John that Jesus had KEPT (teros) the disciples from perishing, and it was IN THE NAME OF GOD that He kept them. (Verses 11 & 12). And he said in verses 14 and 17 His WORD (THE LOGOS -- the substance of God) was what had set them apart from the world. By the very NATURE (NAME) and ESSENCE (LOGOS) of God through Jesus were they protected (kept) and sanctified from the drawing influence of the world. However, after He had left the visible realm of the physical, He sent back the selfsame Spirit and Word that had formerly protected them outwardly which was in the form of Jesus. Upon returning, and this time into the depths of their hearts, He performed a much greater work, for now their authority and power was not from without but from within. Likewise, with His Spirit and word dwelling within every believer they will also be guarded and kept, but this will not be until they have first kept that patient, enduring Word of Himself -- THE LOGOS, the very essence and reality of God. When such a Word has been nurtured (kept) unto maturity, there will then be something of substance that will in reality be able to carry one through the most fierce storm or raging furnace of affliction. Without it, they will be consumed like the wood, hay, and stubble that they are.


    "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (I Thes. 4:16-17).

    When the above verses are read without understanding, it would appear Ribera, Lacunza, Darby, Irving, and Scofield were right in their teachings of the rapture. We know, however, this concept came from carnal minds dealing with things pertaining to the Spirit. Coupled with this teaching came the heavenly Jerusalem coming down to earth (Rev. 21:10), assuming it was speaking of a literal city. To get the true meaning of what is being said here, it is a must to see that it is speaking of SPIRITUAL things and not natural. For instance, how can the heavenly Jerusalem be a natural city when Hebrews 12:22 makes it clear that we have "...N-O-W COME...UNTO THE CITY of the living God, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM." It seems fairly clear that this city is not one of the natural elements, and neither is it somewhere in the natural heavens. We are presently abiding in it, yet without manifestation from the heavens.

    We are now in this heavenly city; but it is hidden from view of the natural eye, for the natural eye sees only that with is of the earth. When that which is of the heavens descends to the earth, then the natural eye is opened to see it. Until then, it remains hidden in the realm of the spirit. And likewise with the Lord who descends from heaven.

    Isn't it true that He abide in us? Is He not in our own heavens? And don't we know He is abiding in the Holy of holies of His temple, which we are? Of course. And when He descends from that realm deep realm within, and makes Himself known in the air of our minds, we see Him. More is said about this later.

    THE RAPTURE is a term that is never used in the Bible, although, there are many words and scriptures that do mean the same thing, and CAUGHT UP (HARPAZO) is one of those words. The World Book Dictionary gives us this definition of the word: "rapture, A strong feeling that absorbs the mind; very great joy. A feeling of being lifted high in mind and spirit; being filled with and completely taken up in feeling or delight or bliss." With this, I believe we would be justified in teaching about being "raptured" (in mind and spirit as the word implies), but we would err if we taught it contrary to what the scriptures and the Spirit have to say about it.

    Let us read again 1 Thes. 4:16-17, but incorporating the Greek and see what might lay beneath the surface: "Because Himself the Lord IN a command, IN a voice of a Chief Messenger, and IN a trumpet of God will come down from heaven, and the dead ones in anointed will be raised first; afterwards we the living ones, those being left over, at the same time with them shall be seized in clouds into a meeting of the Lord into air; and so in this manner with Lord shall we always be."


    IN a command, IN a voice, and IN a trumpet speak of THE LORD HIMSELF as being IN that which is spoken; and in this incident we have THREE (indicating completeness) words (command, voice, and trumpet) that denotes a word spoken. What then, would this signify, especially since the Lord Himself is IN each of them? We are familiar with the word LOGOS -- the very ESSENCE, THOUGHT, and INTENT OF GOD IN MANIFESTATION. Therefore, being that the Lord is IN these three words that convey a message, we conclude that it is THE LOGOS WHICH IS SPOKEN here -- the expression of the very substance of God Himself. It is the very thing which Jesus was declared to be! (Heb. 1:3). In other words, Jesus in the pure and complete form of the living God is descending from the highest realm of our heavens and into the conscious realm of our soul to give us something that will cause us to rise beyond our wildest imaginations! What a COMMAND, what a VOICE, what a TRUMPET! Praise God, it is THE LOGOS OF HIMSELF that our mighty Lord and chief messenger is and will be descending with and INTO those who are his ministers of flaming fire. First, into the firstfruits and then Christ into the world through the firstfruits. Not only does He come into His elect with the voice of a trumpeting commander, but when they are caught up to this place of the high calling of God, they will become that resounding trumpet of the Lord -- THE LOGOS REVEALING THE FATHER OF US ALL! IN A SHOUT -- A COMMAND!

    In a SHOUT (verse 16) comes from the Greek word keleuma which means, "a cry of incitement," and it comes from the word keleuo which means, "to urge on; hail; to incite by word, i.e. order." (Strong's Exh. Conc.). Therefore, a COMMAND TO BATTLE or A WAR CRY is what the Lord is appearing in. Let our minds be stirred at this time with a question: If we are escaping from the enemy by-way-of a massive air-lift, just before Satan's wrath is turned loose on the world, then why would a war cry be given to us? When an army is incited to charge forward into battle they do not conquer by leaving the fury of the enemy, but they win by attacking and overcoming him with superior forces. The Holy Spirit of God tells us eight different times in the book of Revelation what the inheritance will be to the ones who OVERCOME...not to those who run! There is a war to be won, dear saints, and the battle fields are in the regions of our own souls. We might as well face it, until we are apprehended by our Lord and we trumpet the victory on every front, we will never possess the kingdom of the heavens or the earth.


    There are many voices in the land today, but there is only one voice whose is the LOGOS OF GOD, and it is the voice of THE CHIEF MESSENGER of the living God. Many are hearing the voices of the sages of ancient times, others have their ears tuned to the prophets of old, and some are hearing the voices from extraterrestrial beings; a few are communing with the familiar spirits of the dead, numerous others think their own voice is that of Christ's, but the multitudes are simply hearing the clamoring voices of men. However, there is only One voice that will cause one to be lifted in his soul from the realms of dust and ascend into the heavens of Christ -- the voice of JESUS. All other voices are facades that masquerade as messengers of God. They are nothing but influential winds that move and toss the insecure waves of the troubled sea.


    TRUMPETS in scripture speak of a particular message of God that is being conveyed to His people through chosen vessels of Himself. When the various notes were heard, the people understood what they were to do. The command was through musical instruments. Such a message was more clear than when one was speaking audible words. The notes were more austere and carried much farther (miles) than mere words alone. Today, it is the same -- we can speak words from the intellect, as men, which is not all bad, but when the word is spoken by the Spirit it is tremendous, it is overwhelming, it is life. It is then that we resonate from Zion the high calling of our God as we become His polished silver trumpets of salvation.

    In the Old Testament we see the trumpets as types of a living reality that find their fulfillment in the Melchisedec priests of today. For example, it was the priests who were commissioned to blow the trumpets of silver on various occasions. They were blown to assemble the people together for solemn days as well as for occasions of gladness. They were also blown over offerings and sacrifices. The primary thing we want to notice here, however, is the majority of the recordings concerning the sounding of trumpets in the Bible were when the people were praising God for giving them a new king, praising God for being victorious in battle, or they were blown JUST PRIOR TO GOING INTO BATTLE. The latter was a covenant of the Lord to Israel, declaring that, if they would blow the trumpets before going to war, He would remember them and give them power to destroy all their enemies. It is no different today, for the covenant still stands; and as we trumpet the victory praise of the voice of the archangel (Jesus the Chief Messenger) we will see it as it was in times past. The priest blew the trumpets for Joshua at Jericho (Josh. 6) and the defended walls fell, and Gideon's army of 300 trumpeted at Moreh and destroyed the armies of the Midionites, the Amalekites, and all the armies of the east (Judges 7). When that seventh and last trumpet begins to sound in our own hearts (it should already be sounding, for the message has been going forth for some time), remember, it is a VICTORY CRY OF PRAISE TO OUR GOD for the great war to be won once and for all. This praise, as it reaches its high crescendo and is in perfect harmony with the preceding six trumpets that have already been blowing, will be the blast, the final LOGOS of TRUTH, KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING, and PRAISE that will put Satan under our feet once and for all. When the victory of God's elect is secure they will sound the message of this great triumph which will cause the whole world to be shaken off its feeble foundations of iron mingled with clay! -- But praise God, this is O.K., let it be, for there must be a shaking and removing before there can be a planting and rebuilding! (Jer. 1:10 & Heb. 12:25-29). This is the purpose of the sons of God -- that of setting the groaning creation (ALL CREATION) into the glorious liberty of being BORN OF GOD (Rom. 8:19-21)!

    Can we not agree that we have been given the ministry of reconciliation (II Cor. 5:18-19) in order to set creation free (Rom. 8:19-21)? This being the case, then our cry should be one with the prayer of our Lord Jesus: "I PRAY NOT that thou shouldest take them OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." (Jn. 17:15). Therefore, sons of God, if ye be sons and not bastards (Heb. 12:7-, let us not look for a way out of tribulation; but rather, let us LOOK UNTO HIM who will give us VICTORY OVER THE EVIL, and thereby, bring an end to tribulation for ALL MANKIND.


    The Greek word CAUGHT UP, as it is rendered in the King James version is harpazo, which means, TO SEIZE and is a derivative of haireomai and its meaning is TO TAKE FOR ONESELF. The following are the scriptures where this word HARPAZO is used: "...and the violent TAKE IT BY FORCE (SEIZES IT)." (Mt. 11:12). "...then cometh the wicked one, and CATCHETH AWAY (SEIZES) that which was sown in his heart." (Mt. 13:19). "...and the wolf CATCHETH (SEIZES) them, and scattereth the sheep." (Jn. 10:12). "...neither shall any man PLUCK (SEIZE) them out of my hand...and no man is able to PLUCK (SEIZE) them out of My Father's hand." (Jn. 10:28 & 29). "...with fear, PULLING (SEIZING) them out of the fire. (Jude 23). "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God Knoweth:) such an one CAUGHT UP (SEIZED) to the third heaven." (II Cor. 12:3). "...and her child was CAUGHT UP (SEIZED) unto God...." (Rev. 12:5). And also, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP (SEIZED) together with them...." (I Thes. 4:17).

    Not only from the meaning of this word do we see that IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DIRECTION, such as being caught UPWARDLY into the air, but by taking note of how the original writers of the New Testament used the word also gives us definition of the word. Therefore, seeing that the word simply is telling us of a particular STATE OF BEING one might find himself -- namely, in the disposition of being SEIZED, then it would be good for us to get our minds off of where we thought we might be GOING and on to WHAT WE ARE DEFINITELY BECOMING. What it boils down to, brethren, is this: When we hear the LOGOS OF GOD we will find ourselves so completely SEIZED OF OUR LORD, and with such resurrection power, that we will never fall to the pulling gravity of the flesh again.

    Flying away into the cloudy skies would no doubt be an exciting experience, but in comparison to what is happening inwardly (being "raptured" into and by the Spirit of the living God) causes every thing else to pale to the paltry naturalisms they are. If being physically raptured is our hope, oh, dear saints of God, how miserably we have robbed ourselves, for there is something greater, yes, MUCH, M-U-C-H GREATER! Therefore, never let it be said that we are trying to rob anyone of anything, for our desire is to give. Hopefully, however, the myth of becoming human missiles will be removed from people's minds. If this is accomplished, we do hope some realities will take the place of what some would consider a great loss. But how could it be a loss if it is replaced with the reality of the king of glory Himself? -- Jesus Christ!


    At a glance there does not seem to be anything very significant in this term "IN (the) CLOUDS" other than the Greek omits the definite article THE. There is no apparent, hidden Greek word here to draw from that would change or enhance the meaning of this thought (I Thes. 4:17). However, there are times when it is proper to look at the spiritual meaning of various statements recorded in the Bible to see what is really being said. We believe this is one of those times and areas of scripture, especially when we consider the other thoughts contained in these verses that are associated with the clouds. We can also take note of some other scriptures that should help us in seeing what clouds in the Bible are so often referring to: "For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto THE CLOUDS." (Ps. 57:10); "Ascribe ye strength unto God: His excellence is over Israel, and His strength is in THE CLOUDS...The God of Israel is He that giveth strength and power unto HIS PEOPLE." (Ps. 68:34 & 35); and "Who maketh the CLOUDS HIS CHARIOT." (Ps. 104:3).

    It has been made clear that our citizenship is IN THE HEAVENS (Heb. 12:22-24), and looking at the above verses, can we not say that THE SAINTS are in fact those clouds? We should be able to, for God's truths are given to PEOPLE rather than to natural clouds. His strength and power is also ascribed to PEOPLE and not literal clouds (there is indeed power in natural clouds, but the context of Ps. 68:35 is referring to people). And most certainly, THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH make up the chariot in which God rides and manifests His power and majesty to the world, rather than by the clouds of the blue skies above. The clouds spoken of in I Thes. 4:17 are no less the same. When it speaks of being seized in clouds, it is not speaking of the natural water clouds from which our rain comes, but it is referring to God's people who make up the heavenly host. Isaiah 55:10-13 attests to this by saying that WE shall be as the rain that comes down out of heaven (rain is condensed clouds) to water the earth which causes the whole world to come alive and to break forth into joyous singing. Hebrews 11:40 and 12:1 also speaks of people being clouds, i.e. all the patriarchs who have died in faith are called a CLOUD OF WITNESSES.

    When we read of things in heaven -- clouds, rain, lightning, hail, thunder, or even a city -- it is generally speaking of those with specific characteristics who are abiding in Christ rather than having their minds wrapped up in the soiled garments of the earth. When considering the clouds, we should be able to see that it is alluding to people in the same manner as when we read, "Ye are come unto...the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM...." (Heb. 12:22). This is a statement about PEOPLE and not buildings. This city is mentioned again in Rev. 21:9-10, and before it is called THE GREAT CITY it is said to be THE BRIDE, THE LAMBS WIFE (again -- PEOPLE -- not buildings). This city was then seen descending out of heaven from God, like the rain of Isaiah 55:10, which is manifested on the lower realm to bless the earth. Until there is a descending from the realm of the heavens of Christ's habitation, the inhabitants of the earth will never see the glory of God and be set into the liberty of being His offspring. It will be from the descending rains of God that every eye of all flesh shall see His glory and be drawn to this holy city to worship the One they sought after and came to love. (Acts 17:27, Isa. 55:10-13, 40 3-5. 66:23, Rev. 15:4, etc.). Therefore, brethren, as it is seen by us, we will remain right here with our feet upon the earth, yet residing in the heavens, as did Jesus (Jn. 3:13), and become rain to a parched and thirsty world of humanity. Regardless of whether we are clouds or the city, which we should be both and even more, it speaks somewhat of the same thing. With either, we first win our heavenly wars and are established in the heavens of Christ, then we are made known to those of the dust and will minister life so they might also overcome and live. However, if we should really be lifted into the literal clouds, as it has been supposed, how could we ever be of any good to the creation who awaits our appearing so they can be liberated and set free from the bondage of corruption (Rom. 8:19-21)? Needless to say, we would be of no value at all, but it is a different story to those who are CAUGHT UP (SEIZED -- HARPAZO) as was Paul in II Cor. 12:2 -- they will ultimately bring total deliverance to the groaning creation. IN THE AIR -- INTO AIR

    "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thes. 4:17). This sounds fairly emphatic, that is, when we look at it in the literal sense; but let us take time and examine a couple of prepositions in the Greek and see if some beneficial light can be shed to illumine our minds. Note the underlined prepositions of the following: "We the living ones...shall be seized IN CLOUDS INTO A MEETING of the Lord INTO AIR." Prepositions may not seem to be important enough to even consider, but they play a major roll in languages by showing the relationship between a noun or pronoun and some other word in the sentence. In this case, the word ONES of THE LIVING ONES is the noun, and the preposition IN tells the reader what position the living ones are in with reference to the clouds. Namely, they are right in the very MIDST OF or COMPASSED ABOUT WITH CLOUDS. There is no movement or direction involved at all, they are simply INSIDE CLOUDS. On the other hand, the word INTO lets us know that the living ones relationship to A MEETING and AIR is. INTO has something to do with MOVEMENT, DIRECTION, and DESTINATION. In other words, "We the living ones, those who are WITHIN and MAKE UP THE CLOUD OF WITNESSES RIGHT NOW, when the trumpet is blown, will be SEIZED by the Spirit and taken INTO AN INSTRUCTIONAL MEETING with the Lord of lords which takes place in THE REALM OF THE CONSCIOUS SOUL (spiritually called AIR)." (My paraphrase).

    The word MEETING (apantesin, Grk.) appears four times in the New testament (Mt. 25:1 & 6, Acts 28:15, and I Thes. 4:17), and it carries the thought of a CONFERENCE, an ASSEMBLY, or a CONVOCATION. It means much more than just merely coming in contact with our Lord and standing in His presence. In essence, we are called to a HOLY CONVOCATION when the voice of His trumpet is heard. This HOLY ASSEMBLY, if we will notice, has a certain "AIR" about it, and that air is certainly not that of the sky where jet airliners fly but is speaking of a spiritual spectrum of life. All through the Bible, it is very common to find natural elements of the earth that refers to spiritual realities in people's lives, especially with God's people. This is what we have here -- an analogy.

    Air, as it is rendered in our study passage, comes from the Greek word AER, and according to Dr. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance it means, "TO BREATHE unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy to blow; 'air' (as natural circumambient)." The same word is used in Ephesians 2:1-2 which speaks of Satan: "And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the AIR, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience." When we look closely, we can see THE COURSE (spirit) OF THE WORLD (soul) is synonymous with THE PRINCE (spirit) OF THE AIR (soul); therefore, the more we know about the world (the susceptible soul of man) and its course (its ruling spirit) the more we will know about this infamous prince and will be able to deal appropriately with him.

    The air, according to the above verse, is the realm from which Satan has dominion. Does this then mean that the only place he has any power or authority is where there is BREATHABLE AIR? If this is the case, all one would have to do in order to escape the tempting influence of this lying ruler of darkness is to find someplace where there is no air, like the moon, for instance. We would, however, have to take along some air tanks in order to live; and being that he supposedly resides in "the air," does this mean he would be contained in the air tanks and every time we took a breath of air he would be inhaled into our lungs? Or let us think about this: The next time we get infuriated with someone and hatred builds up to the point we might feel like killing them, why don't we just go jump in the lake with all the air expelled from our lungs and lay submerged about six feet below the surface for awhile? This is sure to get us over our anger in a hurry, because in this location there would be no air around us or in us for the devil to exercise his power through. Therefore, all our evil thoughts would vanish in a flash; that is, until we came up for a breath of "fresh" AIR, and the tempter entered back into our bodies. Silly and foolish thoughts, aren't they? But this "off the wall" thinking is what we could come up with when we insist on looking at all these things only in the literal sense rather than in the spirit and truth of the matter.

    It is good that Paul wrote Eph. 2:2 the way he did -- "according to the COURSE OF THIS WORLD, according to the PRINCE OF THE AIR -- for it makes it much easier to determine what THE AIR is referring to; namely, the SOULISH LUSTS OF THE WORLD.

    The unregenerated soul moves and has its being in THE WORLD, and it is from this air of the soul that Satan was able to gain the title, "...THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD." (Jn. 12:31, 14:30 & 16:11). The fact is, whoever sits upon the throne of the soul makes the earth his footstool and becomes its prince, whether it is Christ or Satan. Although Satan was destroyed by Jesus (Heb. 2:12), he is still sitting as a great dragon in some form or another (probably more like an illusion) on the throne of most people's minds, and they believe that this monster they have magnified so greatly is much too awesome to ever be conquered. Therefore, in order to escape such an awesome, unconquerable foe, another magnified illusion has been created called the rapture. However, those who have truly been "raptured" (seized) out of earthy lusts and temptations are able to overcome all the imaginations of the mind and cast them down to establish God's kingdom in and upon the earth. This victory over the enemy, rather real or imagined, is seen when the Lord of lords descends from the third heaven of the holy of holies and into the second heaven of the holy place of the air of our minds. In this descension He makes Himself known with a war cry which causes the sons of God to be SEIZED INTO HIS LORDSHIP. It is at this time that Satan is to be removed from the throne of our souls, and the apprehended ones of Christ, those who make up the clouds of heaven, will possess that throne and rule the kingdom within forever.

    We see an example of this in Revelation 12:5-11, where the "man child" (MALE SON, Grk.) is CAUGHT UP (SEIZED, harpazo) unto God and His throne, and as a result the war in heaven ensues and ends in glory for those who love not their lives unto the death .


    "Then we...shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we EVER be with the Lord." (I Thes. 4:17). If the catching up, rather, being seized into the clouds of the air is to be a literal event, then we might find ourselves in a peculiar situation. Note the word EVER: It comes from the Greek word "pantote" which means ALWAYS. It is telling us where we will be FOREVER, which will be with the Lord (this is good) but that locality is not so good, for it is in THE COLD CLOUDS OF THE SKY....Think about it, F-O-R-E-V-E-R in the CLOUDS OF THE ATMOSPHERE OVER THE EARTH...to NEVER, N-E-V-E-R leave.... This would definitely produce some problems -- not only would we become very damp and bored after awhile, but there are some scriptures we would have to rip entirely from our Bibles. Three comes to mind at the moment: "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH." "And she brought forth a man child, WHO WAS TO RULE ALL NATIONS...." "And He...showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem (the bride), DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN...." (Rev. 5:10, Rev. 12:5 & Rev. 21:10).

    If we are to remain in the sky always, never to return, then there is no way for us to EVER reign on the earth; the nations which are upon the earth will NEVER be righteously ruled by the sons of God; nor would the bride of Christ EVER descend and manifest God's glory to the world which is to be displayed by her radiant beauty. But praise God, we are here to tell you, dear saints, since II Thes. 4:16-17 is not speaking of natural things, WE WILL NOT BE ETERNALLY LOCKED IN THE NATURAL, CLOUDY SKIES OUR RAIN COMES FROM! We will, however, be forever in His company with His body which is His CLOUD OF WITNESSES, those who are as He is. We will be eternally in the CONSCIOUS PRESENCE of our wonderful Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! Now that, dear ones, is something we can comfort one another with, as we are told to do in the concluding verse of this promise to the saints. (II Thes. 4:18)TWINKLE OF THE EYE

    We will briefly touch upon something Paul said that has been used to support the rapture teaching: "In a moment, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor 15:52)

    We will borrow once again from J. Preston Eby:

    "...'Twinkling' is from the Greek word RHIPE meaning `a jerk' of the eyes. RHIPE is from the root RHIPTO, a word which indicates a sudden motion; to hurl with a rapid movement; a stroke; to toss; to fling. The twinkling of an eye relates not so much to time as it does to the ACTION and MOTION involved. It is not a question of how quickly the eyelids flutter, but the fact of a movement, a jerk, a change of direction, a SUDDEN REFOCUSING OR LOOKING AWAY. If I were reading a book and I heard the door open, I would swiftly dart my eyes in the direction of the door to see who is entering. I would LOOK AWAY from the book and quickly REFOCUS my sight on the person coming through the door. This abrupt motion, this sudden refocusing of vision, this rapid change of eye contact is what is indicated by the Greek word RHIPE.

    "When our attention is unexpectedly attracted by a sudden burst of revelation and spiritual understanding there is that instantaneous `turning away' from our former concepts, beliefs, actions and ways, to behold and embrace the truth and glory of God disclosed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This sudden change in perspective, this immediate transformation of consciousness satisfies precisely the meaning of the Greek phrase -- `in the twinkling of an eye.' It bespeaks vision, illumination, understanding, perception and perspective. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with a so called `rapture of the saints,' or the `second coming of Jesus.' Plainly and unquestionably it concerns O-U-R CHANGE, O-U-R TRANSFORMATION into the image of Christ. It says `nothing about us being `raptured' in the twinkling of an eye; what it does say is that `W-E SHALL BE CHANGED in a moment (in atoms), in the twinkling (re-focused vision) of an eye.' Yet the preachers loudly proclaim on the basis of this verse that Jesus will return in a split second, and the saints will in a flash of time travel a trillion miles of miracle at the Rapture. It is as pure a myth as ever entered the brain of man!" -- End quote.

    No Brethren, we will not be whisked off the earth and changed. There will be no bursting open of our graves some glad day beyond the ages that will produce the change. Neither will our change come as a result of simply believing the teachings of the rapture, or any other doctrine, for that matter. And when God gets ready, He will not be snapping His fingers and saying, "Be mature, transfigured sons of glory." There are, however, some verses that do tell us how this glorious change comes. One such verse is, "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye TRANSFORMED by the RENEWING of your mind." (Rom 12:2). The change comes, dear ones, due to the renewing of our minds, as we our attention is refocused!

    The Laodicean church of today has acquired so many easy-way-out concepts and teachings that it will take a great shaking to ever get strength built back into its body. The rapture is only one of her weakening doctrines. Perhaps, we should all be reminded: When any teaching or belief is founded upon one or two scriptures alone, there is no spiritual stability to build upon. Anger is often generated when such beliefs are challenged, for this is commonly the only defense one would have when falsehoods are dearly embraced. Any true doctrine of God will be found throughout the entire Bible rather than in a few isolated areas that are sometimes vague. If the teachings are not consistent throughout the written word, it can be very dangerous and extremely painful for one to hold them too closely to oneself; for when they are touched and consumed by God's flaming ministers and His words of fire, they will definitely get burned. There are a couple of other scripture passages that may seem to give strength to being physically raptured off the earth; however, after taking a closer look, one may have to reconsider what is truly the doctrine of Christ in this matter.

    Written by

    Elwin R Roach

    Whats your thoughts on this? Just found it yesterday while breezing through some subjects on what a few consider a controversial person.Ofcourse he is not here to defend himself or further explain what he means, but its interesting just to consider what another says. Hearing him first.

    God bless

  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

    Aug 27, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Brother, this is interesting to me, because I do not believe in a total rapture of all believers, but a partial rapture of those who are watching, and ready at His return. The implications of this are that some believers will be left behind, and there will have to be an explaination. Some people will come to the knowledge of the truth, while others will believe a lie. What kind of lie could cover up the rapture of saints? Well, we could say that aliens took them all, I imagine that will be a popular theory. Or we could say 'wait, we were wrong all along. God didn't say he was going to take the good ones, he was going to take... the wicked people!' So that means everyone who is left behind, are the good ones! The buddhists, the muslems, the hindus, and the catholics can finally come together in their one world religion, now that those nasty old fundamentalists have been removed by God, and we will be able to finally experience the kingdom on earth, without Jesus. But the bible says that is when antichrist steps up and declares himself to be God and the tribulation starts.
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Over here:
    it is said:

    " ... look at the author of the message, and the person who hosts the website. He is a rebel from a Baptist church, outside of the will of God. He believes in a secondary baptism of the spirit--another heresy. And then, knowing that his obscure beliefs would split the church (they were not in agreement with the pastor of the church) he went ahead and taught them anyway. How unethical! His doctrines are unorthodox and unbiblical."

    Elwin R Roach: " Any true doctrine of God will be found throughout the entire Bible rather than in a few isolated areas that are sometimes vague."

    Amen, Brother Roach -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    The following post was pre-prepared by Ed Edwards
    who is the sole owner of it.
    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    2) our gathering together unto him

    Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
    Looking for that blessed hope,
    and the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) blessed hope
    2) the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    These two events are mentioned seperately
    throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
    was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
    in the N.T.

    Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

    Matthew 24:31-44
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    John 14:1-3
    Romans 8:19
    1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
    Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
    Colossians 3:4
    1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
    2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
    1 Timothy 6:14
    2 Timothy 4:1,8
    Hebrews 9:28
    1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
    1 John 2:28-3:2
    Jude 1:21
    Revelation 2:25

    Second Advent Passages
    (Jesus comes again in power and glory
    to defeat the antichrist and set up the
    millinnial kingdom):

    Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
    Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
    Matthew 13:41
    Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
    1 Thessalonians 3:13
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
    1 Peter 4:12-19
    2 Peter 3:1-14
    Jude 1:14-15
    Revelation 4-19
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Elwin R Roach: " ... the air of our minds."

    Sorta like an "air guitar?
    I tend to think Roach is full of hot air :(

    I agree with him that the clouds are the
    Billions of the elect saints that return with
    Jesus. That is scriptural:

    Re 1:7 (KJV1769):
    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him,
    and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of
    the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    BTW, this verse does not pertain to the
    rapture/resurrection but to the coming of
    Jesus in power and glory to destroy the
    works of the antichrist and the antichrist.
    I know that as a Christian i know of the
    time of the rapture that I'll not be
    wailing - i'll be praising Jesus. Amen!
  5. JimboJones

    JimboJones New Member

    Aug 20, 2004
    Likes Received:
    I think the rapture is very confusing!
    Some say we'll be "beamed up" and then the Antichrist will come and do his thing but the bible says that Jesus also comes back at the same time when we're "beamed up". This means when the rapture takes place Jesus will return to earth! Somehow this does not fit together with what all the christians say.
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Yes Jimbo, I understand your confusion.
    That is why i listed scriptures and how
    i suggest reading them above BEFORE
    your statement.

    BTW it is considered rude to ignore a post
    containing specifics with your own
    generalities. In this discussion we are
    past generalities. Deal with the specific
    verses that i cited above. Thank you.

    JimboJones: // ... bible says that Jesus
    also comes back at the same time when we're "beamed up". //

    I listed 39 specific passage that say otherwise,
    you have listed zero passages that say
    what you said. This is a debate forum,
    please follow the rules of debate, show where
    the Bible says what you are saying.

    I have listed verses that demonstrate
    the seperation of the events:
    1. the rapture/resurrection
    2. the coming in power of Jesus to
    destroy the works of evil men and
    destroy the antichrist

    Following is a delineation of the differences
    between the two comings. These statements
    were based on the scriptures i cited before
    and i cite them again. I note that there
    are some who, though the two comings have
    two different purposes, believe that the
    two comings will be as one coming.
    The following was prepared before hand
    and was solely developed by Ed who is
    still the owner of this intellectual
    property. This part of the post has
    been made before on the Baptist Board
    but is probably in the hard to find
    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).
  7. JimboJones

    JimboJones New Member

    Aug 20, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Hi Ed.
    I'm sorry but I don't know where in the bible I read it but I knew I red it cause I immediately thought that this is strange cause it doesn't fit together with the pre-trib beliefs.
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    It is very simple and clear in 1Thess 4 that the rapture takes place with the saints being caught up in the air to meet Christ.

    It is very cleaer from John 14 that when Christ returns He takes all the saints to heaven - to the place He is now preparing for us in heaven - in His Father's house.

    It is very difficult to ignore those simple facts.

    The "confusion" comes in when some people want a pre-trib (get out of trouble) rapture or a mid-trib rapture or is it a post trib rapture.

    So the dicussion should not be framed in the terms of "is there a rapture".

    The OP is really arguing against a pre-trib rapture.

    It is correct.

    The rapture happens after the tribulation - and Christ Himself speaks of that tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming in Matt 24 - in that very chapter reference above -

    Rev 19 shows us the 2nd coming, it shows it to be at the end of the tribulation and then Rev 20 shows us the resurrection of the saints - the first resurrection.

    1Thess 4 tells us that the resurrection of the saints - is where the rapture occurs.

    This could not be any easier. It is at the end of the tribulation and the church is caught up in the air to meet Christ - and is taken to heaven to that place He has prepared for us.

    It is simple and easy to get right from the Bible.

    In Christ,

  9. eschatologist

    eschatologist New Member

    Nov 6, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Ed Edwards

    Your rapture "theory" is likewise confusing because it is both unbiblical and also outside the will of God. Nearly ALL of your texts used in describing this 'rapture' theory are texts with serious impending (soon, near) time connotations. Now I already know that these time statements mean nothing to your view and theory, because misrepresenting them are the very columns that support your theory, but they were meant to be simple and understood, not complex and complicated as described by you and the one you were opposing. If it is as you state then I feel quite sure the disciples would have been more than confused. They would have probably viewed this talking around in cicles and frequent misuse of every day words with disdain and walked away in disgust. Yet we know they didn't, which showed they knew and understood what was said and written, without need for a complete transformation of the simple understood language that requires your view to attempt!
  10. billwald

    billwald New Member

    Jun 28, 2000
    Likes Received:
    As in the days of Noah, the bad guys are raptured to Hell and the good guys reclaim the earth.
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Active Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Non Baptist Christian
    In the days of Noah -- As the rain fell - the water rose. As the water rose the people went to high ground - and the ark rose with the water. But the ark continues to be "taken up" while the wicked are simply going to destruction.

    This is just as it will be at the rapture. The Lord will appear - he will descend from heaven with a shout and the trumpet of the Archange. The dead in Christ will RISE first and we will be caught UP together with THEM in the AIR --

    And the wicked will be destroyed.

    Then will the saints be taken to heaven As Christ Promised "I GO to prepare a place for you - and if I GO I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you to Myself that WHERE I am there YOU may be ALSO".

    It is rapture pure and simple - and it happens just as in the days of Noah. Noah is taken UP off the earth by means of the ark and the flood.

    In the end - the saints are TAKEN UP by means of the Power of Christ - the same power that then destroys the wicked.

    It is pretty simple.

    In Christ,

  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Aug 20, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Amen, Brother BobRyan -- Preach it!

    I note in Matthew 24:31-44 about the
    Rapture/resurrection, that Jesus compares
    it to Noah. In other Mount Olivet Discourse
    (MOD) passsages Jesus also compares
    to Lot. Noah and Lot were both saved from
    disaster by being takein out of the locality
    of the disaster. Other folks saved
    by going THROUGH the disaster are
    NOT mentioned in the MOD.
    Recall Daniel and the Lion's Den?
    Recall the three Hebrew children
    and the Fiery furnace?
  13. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

    Nov 23, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Apparently none of you above know that the church is not contextually in Mt. 24, rather it concerns the Jews and Israel. Everything about the church was divinely revealed to Paul after the fact. The disciples could not of associated any of the things in 24 with the church because they were ignorant and uninformed.

    One should compare the Second Coming with Noah and the rapture with Noah.
  14. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

    Dec 4, 2003
    Likes Received:
    "Apparently none of you above know that the church is not contextually in Mt. 24, rather it concerns the Jews and Israel. Everything about the church was divinely revealed to Paul after the fact."

    This why I am not a dispensationalist.

    It seems way too much of a stretch to simply assign parts of Jesus' speech as "only for the Jews".

    We only got 4 gospels - we should use them.

  15. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

    Nov 23, 2004
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    Howdy Brother Charles

    Mt. 24 and Rev.6-19 cover the same time period called the "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14).

    24 focuses on Israel, Rev. includes the rest of the world.

    There will be Jews present in both Israel and the world.

    The Church began in Acts 2 and ends in Rev. 5 and has a remnant of Jews in it.

    You will not find any the judgements mentioned in Mt. 24 and Rev. 6-19 in the Church section of Acts to Rev. 5.

    Please spend some time and see if you can locate any of God's earthly judgments associated with the Church between Acts and Rev. 5.
  16. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

    Oct 22, 2003
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    Prophecynut, You said:
    Apparently none of you above know that the church is not contextually in Mt. 24, rather it concerns the Jews and Israel. Everything about the church was divinely revealed to Paul after the fact. The disciples could not of associated any of the things in 24 with the church because they were ignorant and uninformed.

    One should compare the Second Coming with Noah and the rapture with Noah.

    Tam says:

    Apparently YOU are mistaken!!

    Matthew 24-29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    First of all, to separate ch 24 and say it was just for the Jews is ridiculous!!All scripture was given to us to learn from.

    The key phrase in Matthew 24 isImmediately after the tribulation of those days"

    That simply means that AFTER all the things happen, then Jesus appears. The LAST trumpet sounds.

    Stop trying to make things so hard!!



  17. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

    Feb 7, 2002
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    Well now, that is quite an interesting post. I've wondered about that myself. I am one who is listening for that sweet trumpet sound and expecting it any day. But there would seem to be many who disagree with that on this Board, so perhaps you are correct about this. Only those who are watching and waiting expectantly will be raptured and those who would rather scoff will be left behind. Only some had their lamps ready waiting for the bridegroom to appear. This nasty old fundamentalist will be glad to be gone. Too bad more people don't believe it is imperative to be ready, watching, and waiting, and impress upon their loved ones that Jesus could come any day. :(

    It just makes good sense to be "ready" for any trip. I'm glad God loved us enough to let us know ahead of time what is coming down the pike so that we could warn others. Too bad many people, rather than heed the warnings, would rather try to prove the warnings are wrong. :(

    And for the sake of argument, if the rapture doesn't happen before the Great Tribulation, I would STILL rather be in watching and waiting mode than not. [​IMG]