Cause verses Allows

You shout "context"? "Job did not know what was happening"?

Job knows exactly what was happening and it was "bad", not "good". And Job speaks truth to his wife as he states "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? " And "God's Word" then declares that what Job has said thus far including what he just said to his dear wife is indeed a "righteous " statement......"In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

Maybe we do need to clarify what "evil" is. Is it a "good" thing? No, then it must be a "bad" thing. Is disasters that kill and destroy a "good" thing? No, they are "bad" things.

Tell me what "judgment" God was bringing upon Job? God says first off.... Job 1:1¶There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

You keep saying that these clamities are a result of God's judgment on sin. The scripture states that God thought very highly of Job and God was not bringing disaster to Job because of any "judgment".

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Job 1:22¶In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

What is this? Job has thus far said that it was the Lord who has brought disaster upon him and it was the Lord who was taking away His protection and blessing. Yet, this is not seen as charging God "foolishly".

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

What's this? God moving against Job without a cause to destroy him!

What about "judgment"?

:jesus:

 

Wait a minute. You said disaster and clamity was a "judgment" by God upon sin. Job was receiving disaster and clamity from God.

God said He had no cause to destroy Job. Notice the scripture says "God is the one doing the destroying.

Here it is again....

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God doing the destroying and for no cause on Job's part.

God destroying.

For no fault of Job's.

Either way, God is in control of every situation. So I agree with Job. If I suffer evil it has been approved for me by God. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

No, we are talking about God creating disasters (evil, same difference) and you said when God does this it is to pass judgment on sin. This leads us to Job who God said he was destroying for no fault of Jobs.

So does the "God destroying always for judgment" theory of yours stand up? I don't think it has.

:jesus:

 

"Every action" is quite a broad brush. Do you mean if I decide to beat my wife it was God who caused me to do it? Not at all.

:jesus:

 

Would you say Jesus' murder was a sin?

Who planned it?

If God did not plan Jesus death then who planned mankind's redemption? Satan? The Jews who cried crucify Him? The Romans?

Do you believe God looked down the corrador of time and said to Himself "Oh look! They are going to kill my Son! Well, I will just make Him a sacrifice for sin then. That'll fix em! I'll have the last word on that"?

:jesus:

 

Actually Marcia, look back through your post on this thread. You brought up disasters and judgment and this is why we are discussing this now.

Come now Marcia. God has already "allowed" Satan to attack Job's family and possessions when He says this....

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

You are ignoring the text Marcia. God initiated this destruction of Job and it was not due to any "judgment". You say it was a "test" for Job, I agree! This doesn't somehow take away from the fact that this "destroying", which you say is not "evil", has come from God and has come without cause concerning Job's actions.

:godisgood:

 

What was Job's sin?

:jesus:

 

It was just two pages back, on page two when you entered this thread.

You had presented a commentary that said "evil" is a wrong translation. that it should be rightly translated as "disaster" in Isaiah 45.

Here in Job, the same Hebrew word "ra" is also translated as "evil" in the KJV as well as other contemporary translations. The commentator for some reason believes that "ra" should be "calamity" instead of "evil" and I am just assuming that he would say the same about Job thinking this somehow changes the context of the text, which it does not.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job has lost his children, his servants and his wealth (chp 1) and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God never sins, yet God does have absolute power and authority over all things, including sin. If God wants to cause Pharoah to sin by hardening his heart then He is just and righteous in doing so even though He Himself cannot be blamed.

Job is a fantastic example of the sovereignty of God in all things even controling the evil that comes upon men, even good men like Job.

Job never once mentions Satan causing any of his pain and suffering. He sees all that happens to him as being from God alone. Whether it be blessings or evil. Job recognizes the sovereignty of the LORD and we should learn this great truth from what God has done to Job.

Yes, God uses Satan to carry out these evils, but Satan is God's tool under God's command for God's purposes and to reveal God's power and glory.

:jesus:

 

Calamity caused by God. The OP is "Cause verses Allow".

I had asked the question concerning Pilate. Pilate had the power to save Jesus from the crowd. Pilate decided to "allow" the crowd to kill Jesus. Did Pilate sin in doing so? Or was he innocent? Did Pilate "cause" Jesus death or did he "allow" Jesus' death? And what would be the difference seeing Pilate had the power and the last word on the matter?

Jesus said Pilate had no power over Him except it be given by God. Did Pilate sin by "allowing" Jesus to be killed?

Well said! And my point remains. God caused Pharoah to disobey Him, just as the scripture clearly states. And God was just in doing so and without sin because God is always just and righteous in His ways. It is His world and His plans and He gets to do it His way.

Please explain how it is different. You said God was "testing" Job. For what? To see if Job would sin against Him?

:godisgood:

 

Job said God was bringing disaster upon him. God did this by killing Job's children and servants as a start. What would be God's execution of judgment here? Maybe Job's children and servants were committing idolatry that we are not told anything about. But the scripture does tell us that it was Job who was God's focus and the reason for God's "clamity". So this is why I asked what Job's sin was to bring God's "judgment" upon him. Job's friends sure thought he committed some sort of sin. They thought like you, that surely God would not bring disaster unless it was for judgment!

I'm siding with Job. Are you siding with Job's friends and wife?

Shall we receive good from the LORD and not evil also?

:jesus:

 

This is a good question for everybody. Who here sides with Job and who here sides with his friends and wife?

Job is saying 'I did not sin for this evil and yet this evil has come from God'. Job's friends say it is a judgment for sin Job must have committed.

What do you think? Who do you side with?

:jesus:

 

How can it be you say that Job never knew why?

Job says it was God bringing evil upon him. Is this Job not knowing and making a false analysis of the situation? The scripture says that what Job said to his wife and friends, which was recorded for us to read [ Job 1:22¶In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.] ,was no foolish charge against God, even though Job had said it was evil sent from God.

What is the test Marcia? A test of faith? If so, what happens if Job fails? What would Job's failure to pass the test look like? Would it be cursing God? Is not cursing God a sin? Then isn't God tempting Job to sin if this is a test? If it is a test of faith then Job failing would be cursing God and not believing on Him any longer, no?

James says God does not tempt any man to sin. So the account of Job cannot be God testing Job to see if Job will sin (curse God, stop trusting in Him).

It must be something else. How about this? How about it being God wanting Job and us to know His sovereign authority over every thing, including evil that comes upon us, that His hand is commanding the angels, both good and bad to do His will and make His power and glory known?

How about letting Job's words stand true, "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

I don't see any evidence in the scripture that says this was a test for Job's faith from God. It is obvious it was a very trying time for Job and it could be said that God was tempering Job's faith, but I don't see any testing which would be tempting Job to sin.



:jesus: