Cause verses Allows

I did not ask you "what" a false dichotomy is.

There is only two possible choices in my question. Either God's plan is perfect or it is flawed. So there is nothing false dichotomy about the question. If there is another choice to my question then just simply give it!

Then you answered my question anyway. Your answer is that God did not plan for Adam to sin. I find this answer incorrect because if God did not plan for Adam to sin then why did God plan on Jesus Christ being sacrificed for Adam's sin even before He created the world?

I have proven that God planned Adam's sin because God planned Jesus' sacrifice before the foundation of the world.

You have not presented any other possiblities even though you cliam they exist.

:jesus:

 

It really is the same thing Marcia. Think about it. God is Sovereign. God could have looked ahead just as you said and said NO! That plan is no good for evil will come and Adam will sin. But God said YES! I will go forth with this plan and I will reveal to all creation My great power, mercy and grace! I will glorify My Son beyond measure! And all will then know Me and those who truly want Me and want to love Me will be My precious children and I will be a Wonderful Father to them.

Could there be a more perfect plan? I know of none.

God bless you and once again I appreciate your imput. Before I totally embrace this pov I have been working on, I want it to be jabbed at from every angle to see if it holds up. So far I haven't seen any good argument against it, only emotional pleas. When you get the time I would like to hear some of those other views on this.

:jesus:

 

First let me say I appreciate you spending some time and thought on this subject. Iron sharpens iron and we are ever learning when it comes to our Great God.

I did not say anything about God's attributes developing through time due to God making adjustments or learning about His creation. I said, God's mercy, grace and justice along with everything else God is is Eternal. No beginning and no end. Mercy and grace has always been and God has always known just what He is. So I am not sure why you would think I was saying any such thing when I did state that God's attributes are eternal, in fact, the very fact that they are eternal is a positive for my case.

I appreciate this proposed theory as a rebutal to what I am proposing. In order for a theory to carry some value it must withstand intense scrutiny.

So could God have placed in Adam the knowledge of mercy and grace without Adam ever experiencing or witnessing these things? I think this is what you mean by "conceptually".

I believe God's word reveals to us that this is absolutely not possible. Here is why;

Mercy and Justice are moral qualities of God. These are "good" things, but not only "good" things but also "moral" things. Food can be a "good" thing but it is not a "moral" thing. Carrots are good for you to eat and are good for your health, but have nothing to do with a "moral good".

So could Adam have had the knowlege of God's "good morals" before the fall? Adam knew that food was "good", but did Adam know God's "goodness"?

Consider this scripture...

Gen 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Gen 3:5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Do we really "know" all of these things? Or do we repeat a theory of what we have been told over and over?

I believe the scripture says that Adam's knowledge of "good and evil" was zero before the fall.

God Bless! :jesus:

 

I'm listening........go on.

:jesus:

 

If this is the best argument then my theory is moving ever closer to being proven, at least with the information we have been given in the scriptures.

You guys say, "You cannot prove Adam's knowledge before the fall". And then you guys keep saying, "Adam did know God before the Fall more intimately than after, when sin separated him from God".

Now what scripture has informed you that God knew Adam more intimately before the fall?

So just because God, through sin, has taught us about His mercy and justice doesn't mean God didn't have another way? Or even a better way?

By this pov you are saying to God, "You could have done it better". Or, "Even though God had another way, God chose to ALLOW sin". Now why would God chose the sin way IF He thought there was another way, or a better way? Surely God, being perfect, would have done this the BEST way! No?

:jesus:

 

Come now swaimj....stay with this.

Ok, I'll fix it for you...

Now what scripture has informed you that Adam knew God more intimately before the fall?

:jesus:

 

True, but this does not equate to knowing God more intimately. We know that before the Fall Adam had no knowledge of God's good attributes such as love, mercy and grace.

I don't see how Adam could have loved God as you say, with such a wonderful perfect love, and then choose to disobey God over one single fruit when he had tons of food to eat.

I don't see why Adam would want to gain "knowledge" if he already had a wonderful knowledge of what "good" was.

Beaten beyond recognition, having His back laid open with deep lashes, despised and rejected, spit upon, His beard torn out of His face with chunks of flesh, spikes driven through His wrist, through the median nerve so it may cause the most pain, spikes driven through His heels, raised up and slammed into the hole causing His joints to dislocate, left to hang there in terrific pain for hours..................

"I see no reason why God could not show mercy another way". God did it the best way, the perfect way and I would say the only way. His ways are far above our ways. I highly doubt God pondered over a few different ways.

There is no other way I could love and appreciate God more. None. God performed the perfect way to reveal His eternal love to His creation. Adam was created to fail. Jesus Christ is glorified. Perfect plan, So perfect. Praise Him!

:jesus:

Are you sure you don't know why Marcia?

It is written all throughout the scriptures.......to reveal Himself and glorify His name!

raying:

 

Yes, God is Love. You have read that God is love, but how do you know what love is? Don't you need to experience it?

Yes, but you believe Adam had a deep intimate relatioship with God that we cannot fathom! Adam had no sin tainting his life as we do.

I have only reitterated the scripture to you. We have been told, there is no speculating from my part.

We have been given knowledge of only one way. I have accepted it. You believe there could be other ways even though you have not given any scenarios for me to consider. My view is based on what I am told by God in the scriptures.

:jesus:

 

I was reading through Genesis chapters 1-3 again looking specifically for information concerning Adam's relationship with God pre-fall. There is not one reference to intimacy. No mention of wonderful exchanges of great love either revealed by God towards Adam or vise versa.

I did notice something interesting though. We have been taught and have accepted the teaching that Adam's relationship with God before the Fall must have been so sweet, so pure, so perfect, so full of love. All because of one fact, which is, Adam had no sin between him and God, and God is love.

Ok, this is a fact, Adam had no sin between him and God pre-fall. Does this then translate to Adam having a deep loving relationship between him and God?

Think about this; If Adam had a perfect loving relationship with God, and God seen it as a perfect loving relationship, then why does God say ....

Gen 2:18¶And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.



Alone?? But Adam had God! And without any sin to taint the relationship. Why would God say Adam was alone? Didn't God physically walk with Adam daily? Wasn't Adam and God inseperable without sin? Intimate and full of sweet love?

Could it be? Adam was "alone"? No companionship, no one to love or to receive love from?

Actually, there is no scripture that speaks of God walking along side of Adam and them having sweet loving fellowship before the Fall. There isn't any scripture that indicates Adam even seen God or some manifestation of God. We know Adam heard God and we know God placed Adam in the garden, but that is all the scripture tells us.

The stories we have been told are simply just that, stories. Speculations, imaginations of what it must have been like. But this is from the perspective of us knowing God's grace and mercy. SO we assume Adam knew what we know but was without sin. Fact is, Adam didn't have this knowledge before the Fall.

If we look at the scripture and what it says we find these hard facts;

1) God believed it was not good for Adam to be alone (2:18), even though Adam had a relationship with God and it was without sin.
2) Adam had no knowledge of good. (2:17)
3) Adam had no knowledge of evil. (2:17)
4) God made availiable to Adam the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (2:9)
5) God allowed Satan to tempt Adam. (3:1-5)
6) God allowed Adam to disobey (sin). (3:6)
7) Adam gained the knowledge of good and evil. (3:22)
8) Adam begins his lessons on justice, forgiveness, mercy, grace and love. (3:17-24)

:wavey:

 

That would be God who says so. We read in the scripture that Adam had "....no knowledge of good...." (Gen 2:17)

They say ignorance is bliss! Having no knowledge of good and evil might have been blissful. Depends on your pov I guess.

No, I am accepting that this is the way God chose to reveal Himself to His creation.

You say you accept it, but I don't know....do you accept that Adam had no knowledge of good and evil?

:jesus: