Challenge still unanswered.

Aaron, I took the liberty of checking out your home page, even copying stuff to read later. Excellent job!!! Biblical references & everything. I will be a few more days reading stuff, but you really have put some great references & facts to support your views.

I am on the fence here, I hate to see such an ugly debate about music, but I have noticed that the people who support CCM, & Christian rock in general, never post any scripture to back up their views, they only throw stones at those who do.

Thank you for obeying the spiritual conviction to go against the grain.

 

Curtis, that's because there's not any scripture that speaks for or against any specific styles of music.

Mike

 

Since the other thread is now limited only to Aaron and Ransom, I will address Aaron's new MV page (linked/referred to on this thread, above) here

</font>[/QUOTE]The bottom line with this "effect" on people is:
"To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure". (Titus 1:15) I'm not saying that we can indulge in anything then, but that this "effect" of rock beats is much too dependant on other factors to be ruled out like this, just because others use it wrong.

People were already rebelling against the hypocrisy of the old societal order. Alot of that "rigidness" manifested in the old music was just that-- unatural, unbiblical rigidness. Let's be truthful-- Ventura says "the energy that lived in the hips and the loins would proceed through proper channels -- and those channels were defined well outside the dance", but was this true in most cases? People were completely uptight, (even in that "proper channel" --the marriage bed) and the young crowd began to rebel against this. (As I said in another thread, even "pregnant" was seen as too dirty for television, even in marriage! Tell me this is "biblical"). Just look at the above quote-- everything was "geometrical", stiff, intellectual. This may be good in itself, but it is totally unnatural and unlifelike to confine life to that formula. And as I have pointed out elsewhere, this musical intellectualism was full of pride, as people have noted. So people for years forced to conform to this were confused, and had no real biblical basis of truth, since so much nonsense was taught as "biblical truth", and doing whatever felt good seemed the only alternative. Then they adopted a style of music that was livelier, and this did go along with the sexual freedom they were exploring, but it was not the cause of it.

Further clarifying this is another response I had to the private thread that I e-mailed to Aaron (I did want to post it publicly anyway):

While you and Ransom have gotten hung up on the meaning of "sensual", the real issue here is not whether there is anything sensual or if it influences us, but what it is exactly that has this characteristic.

The argument always ultimately boils down to, is if the "beats" have "irregular accents", and they come from old tribal Africa, that is how we know it is "sensual". Those are the only elements of the music that are seen as defining or setting the so-called "bad" styles apart.

While many people may use this music for sensuous dancing or mood setting, we must not forget that "the flesh" (by even your own definition above) is not just sexual desire or appetite, but also pride, and the plain traditional styles have been associated with and can be seen as fostering cultural pride (such as being more superior or "holier" than those "sensuous", "demonic" "heathen savages", [such as the "voodoo priests" which keep getting mentioned], etc). It too has a pagan background, not in wild ritual, but in Platonic ascetic philosophy that is equally condemned in the Bible as of the devil. (Recall in the other thread regarding "seared conscience", this is what was actually was being addressed in that context).

So while others may be wrong in trying to deny that anything can corrupt us, still, this dichotomy between "rock" and "classical" is just not scriptural.

Meanwhile, I myself listen to funky/jazzy music intellectually, and don't move my hips, as I am not into dancing, so this proves that the negative effects are not universal, and that it can be enjoyed just as innocently as classical/traditional.

Also, I wanted to make one related copmment on the new "Appeal" page Aaron not too long ago pitched:

Once again, "Christian America" is the center of this issue, and "African voodoo beats" its great corrupter. This was precisely one of the things that was used as an excust to enslave and then segragate blacks back in the same period of time upheld as so godly and Christian. Yet, we take such pride in the supposed sexual morality. James 2:11 says "For He who said 'Do not commit adultery' also said 'do not murder'. But if you do not commit adultery, yet if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the Law".

The above quotes shows that this is ultimately a cultural issue, not a scriptural issue, especially when the scriptures render any such comparisons of different cultures, or different eras in the same culture invalid. No, one may not have active "hatred" of different cultures (though there are some that do), still, the basis of cultural superiority is pride (exalting one's self moreso than putting others down, which is only a means to that end), so we all have to watch for this coloring our worldview, and especially our use of the Bible or scriptural principle.

 

But there are, & Aaron has taken great pains to put them on his page. Ignore them, if you want, but they are there.

I'm not going to say rock is evil. I'm just saying Aaron has made good biblical points, & nobody can dispute him from the Bible. As a spectator, it looks to me like the Rock is evil crowd is winning this argument.

[ April 09, 2002, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]

 

What's a PM?
I also forget that I had locked out my e-mail because of some nasty spam I had been getting, so I guess I didn't get it.

Thanks. It's actually been a joy discussing this with you too

Sure, every single critic without fail lists all the quotes of non-Christian rock musicians to prove their point, but my point is not that that is all wrong, and that there is never any effect, or connection with paganism, but that music cannot be dichotomized like that, based on nothing more than a beat. As I have shown, much of the past "Protestant" culture was just as carnally mindes, because carnality as Paul defines it is not just sexual "sensuality", but also an unnatural suppression of sexuality and other fleshy needs, as well as pride and a host of other sins. The mistake I'm getting at is to try to identify one culture as "spiritual" while only certain others are "sensual". They all have sin, as well as some grains of spiritual truth mixed in with it. This is the issue.

 

Eric B said:

Meanwhile, I myself listen to funky/jazzy music intellectually, and don't move my hips, as I am not into dancing, so this proves that the negative effects are not universal, and that it can be enjoyed just as innocently as classical/traditional.

For my part, I'm still trying to figure out when I'm supposed to get caught up in the dancing that rock music invariably and inevitably leads to, when I am too busy listening to it intellectually. I like to deconstruct bass lines and drum rhythms in my head.

 

Aaron said:

But just start dancing to it and see what happens. Like most dance coaches say, do what the music tells you to do.

I believe I did: deconstructing bass and drum rhythms.

 

That was always the argument against any form of music with a pronounced beat. Here is a scenario that I witnessed in my youth group

Girl: So why is it wrong to listen to Christian music with a "Rock" beat

Youth Sponsor: Well let me ask you this, does your boyfriend listen to music that has a rock beat?

Girl: Yes

Youth Sponsor: Well, I'll bet he has wandering hands as well!

You see, music's effects are many times linked with other areas of weakness, and are treated as the source of all fleshly behavior. There is no causal link between any style of music and sensual thought, or behaviour.

It is the same nonsense that leads to some leaders telling girls that the boys lust after them because they wear pants, or a skirt that doesn't completely cover the kneecap.

Lust and other fleshly behaviour is its own problem. Some young men are going to have a thought life problem even if the girls wear robes and veils, and some people have a problem with fleshly behaviour no matter what music they listen to. And some people will not have a problem with their thought life, no matter what kind of music they listen to.

Smoke_Eater is right, and I would go a step further, the reason we do not post scripture left and right, is because much of what is posted as scripture we agree with, it is the philosophy of man that has been extrapolated from the few scriptures that reference music that we have to spend most of our time dealing with. There is no discussion in scripture of styles of music, or of what instruments are appropriate. There is only our own imagined theories on what they must be talking about in the verses. Its amazing to me, that even some of the best Bible expositers throw caution to the wind when interpreting scriptural principles about music. They would never make up so much nonsense about any other area of scripture, but they squish the scriptures into their own mold, and declare the "truth" about Godly music. When the truth is, they have created a man-centered graven image to add to their worldly system of works required to demonstrate ones sanctification

[ April 11, 2002, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: superdave ]

 

Powerfully said!
I myself have always thought that arguments such as this are more about what the Bible does not say, so that is why we end up "having" less scripture. Instead, scripture winds up being used most by those trying to read something into them.

 

No one is arguing with the scripture verses he's provided but it hasn't been established that they are speaking about rock music or, specifically, Christian rock music.

Mike

 

Superdave, excellent, excellent post.

Your words ring true and cut to the heart of this topic.