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Chaos

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by 37818, Nov 25, 2021 at 12:58 AM.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Actually those who suppose that have it backwards. Chaos is impossible without order. Order has to be there first in order for there to be chaos.
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    WRONG! Genesis 1:2 says, that when God Created, the earth was "without form", which is the Hebrew "תּהוּ", which means "formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness", and "a place of chaos".

    It was from this "chaos", that God Made Order!
     
  3. Scripture More Accurately

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    Wrong. God is not the "author" of confusion:

    1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

    God did not create the earth to be a "place of chaos" and then make order out of that "place of chaos."

    Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
     
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  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    check the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2, and then tell me that I am wrong!

    Strong's Hebrew: 8414. תֹּ֫הוּ (tohu) -- formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
     
    #4 SavedByGrace, Nov 25, 2021 at 6:10 AM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 6:17 AM
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    chaos or Chaos

    earliest condition of universe: the unbounded space and formless matter supposed to have existed before the creation of the universe

    Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999, 2000

    Perfect definition to what Genesis 1:2 says
     
  6. Scripture More Accurately

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    Just because Strong's (or any other lexicon) gives multiple possible meanings for a Hebrew word does not mean that it is legitimate to use every one of them in every instance of the word.

    Pitting one possible rendering of a Hebrew word against the direct teaching of God in multiple places is faulty theological reasoning.
     
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  7. Scripture More Accurately

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    Making "formless" equal "chaos" is faulty. "Chaos" signifies "any condition or place of total disorder or confusion." God did not create the earth as "total disorder or confusion."

    Everything that He has made shows His glory; total disorder or confusion does not display the glory of God and is antithetical to the wonders of His creative works.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    I have given the link showing the meaning of the Hebrew, not from Strong's, but the Lexicon of Brown, Driver and Briggs. If you think that these Hebrew authorities are wrong, then you have MUCH to learn!

    I personally know what the Hebrew means.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Please stop posting more here that only makes you to be rather foolish, as the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2, is AGAINST you.
     
  10. Scripture More Accurately

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    Strong's Concordance
    tohu: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
    Original Word: תֹּהוּ
    Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
    Transliteration: tohu
    Phonetic Spelling: (to'-hoo)
    Definition: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
    NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin
    from an unused word
    Definition
    formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
    NASB Translation
    chaos (1), confusion (1), desolation (1), emptiness (1), empty space (1), formless (2), futile (2), futile things (1), meaningless (2), meaningless arguments (1), nothing (2), waste (3), waste place (2).


    Brown-Driver-Briggs
    תֹּ֫הוּ noun masculine1Samuel 12:21 (AlbrZAW xvi (1896), 112) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness (primary meaning difficult to seize; Vrss usually Κενόν, οὐδέν, μάταιον, inane, vacuum, vanum; compare LagOr. ii. 60; BN 144); —
    1 formlessness, of primaeval earth Genesis 1:2 (P), of land reduced to primaeval chaos Jeremiah 4:23 (both + וָבֹהוּ and voidness), Isaiah 34:11 ׳קַותֿֿ ("" אַבְנֵי בֹהוּ), Isaiah 45:18 בְרָאָהּ ׳לֹא ת ("" לָשֶׁבֶת יְצָרָתּ); Isaiah 24:10 ׳קִרְיַתאתּ city of chaos (of ruined city); = nothingness, empty space, Job 26:7 תֹּלֶה אֶרֶץ ׳עַלתּֿ; of empty, trackless waste Deuteronomy 32:10 ("" מִדְבָּר), Job 6:18; Job 12:24 = Psalm 107:40.

    2 figurative of what is empty, unreal, as idols 1 Samuel 12:21 (collective: אֲשֶׁר ׳אַחֲרֵי הַתּ לֹא יוֺעִילוּ), 1 Samuel 12:21; Isaiah 41:29 נִסְכֵּיהֶם ׳רוּחַ וָת, Isaiah 44:9 (of idol-makers), groundless arguments or considerations, Isaiah 29:21 צַדִּיק ׳וַיַּטּוּ בַתּ, Isaiah 59:4 moral unreality or falsehood ׳בָּטוֺחַ עַלאתּ ("" וְדַבֶּרשָֿׁוְא); = a thing of nought (compare Ecclus 41:10 מתהו אל תהו), Isaiah 40:17 ("" אַיִן אֶפֶס), Isaiah 40:23 עָשָׂה ׳שֹׁפְטֵי אֶרֶץ כַּתּ ("" לְאַיִן), worthlessness Isaiah 49:19 וְהֶבֶל כֹּחִי כִלֵּיתִי ׳לְת ("" לְרִיק יָגַעְתִּי); as adverb accusative Isaiah 45:19 I said not, תֹּהוּ בַקְּשׁוּנִי seek me emptily, to no purpose. compare Isaiah 29:13 ᵐ5 וְתֹהוּ for וַתְּהִי.

    The above is what your link says. It would be nonsense for someone to say that "formlessness" = "confusion"= "unreality"="emptiness."

    Those words are not perfectly synonymous. As it is, the BDB definition does not say, "chaos" for Gen. 1:2; it says, "formlessness, of primaeval earth Genesis 1:2."

    Your own source does not support your take.

    If you want to believe that creating something as "total disorder and confusion" glorifies God, that is your choice. The living and true God is not the author of confusion.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    8414.jpg
    There are more than one meanings to the Hebrew word, among them is "formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness". As I have already shown from the English dictionary, which gives the perfect meaning of "chaos", as Genesis 1:2 says. Your lack of understanding of what the Habrew actually means, does not allow you to grasp what is being said!
    It is clear that you don't know what you are talking about. I have said this to you before, you should change your name from "Scripture More Accurately"!
     
  12. Scripture More Accurately

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    When some cannot answer a position with Scripture interpreting Scripture, they resort to the tactics that you use here in your final two sentences. Your tactics speak for themselves.

    The fact stands that your own source (BDB) does not say "chaos" for the use of the word in Genesis 1:2; it says "formlessness." That's a sad reality for you that the expert Hebrew source that you cite does not even support the position that you have taken.
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    You still cannot grasp word meanings! The Hebrew word has a wide range of meaings, one of them is CHAOS. You are trying to define this English word with your limited understanding, when I have already shown in # 5, what this English word CAN mean, and as defined by this dictionary, is exactly what Genesis 1:2 says!
     
  14. Scripture More Accurately

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    The fact stands that your own source (BDB) does not say "chaos" for the use of the word in Genesis 1:2; it says "formlessness." That's a sad reality for you that the expert Hebrew source that you cite does not even support the position that you have taken.

    You are the one who is wrongly trying to make a word mean something in a given context that even your expert Hebrew source does not say that the word has that meaning in that context.

    An honest person would acknowledge that he does not agree with what the expert source says and then argue for why he believes that the expert source is wrong.
     
  15. Scripture More Accurately

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    Here is what BibleWorks 10 provides for the meaning of that Hebrew word:


    תֹּהוּ noun common masculine singular absolute
    __________________________________
    Holladay, Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the OT (HOL)
    Hol9020
    תֹּהוּ: w. art. only 1S 1221 Is 2921 4023 Jb 618: wasteland Dt 3210, solitude or emptiness Gn 12; qiryat-tœhû deserted city Is 2410; emptiness = nothingness, nonentity 1S 1221; empty plea (in court) Is 2921; adv. in vain 4519.
    (pg 387) [red highlighting added to the original; original source has Gn1 and then a subscript of 2; copying the info from BibleWorks did not preserve the subscripts; I have not taken the time to try to change the formatting throughout the quote]

    Notice that this expert Hebrew source does not say anything about chaos, total disorder, or confusion as the meaning of the word in that verse; it says that the word has the meaning of "solitude or emptiness."

    Among Hebrew lexicons, HALOT (cited above) is generally regarded to be superior to BDB.

    As I have now shown, two expert Hebrew lexical sources do not say that the word has the meaning of chaos, total disorder, or confusion in Genesis 1:2.
     
    #15 Scripture More Accurately, Nov 25, 2021 at 7:26 AM
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 7:39 AM
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    what you have shown from your own references, is that God did NOT Create the world in "ORDER", Creation is ORDER which is what God did in Genesis chapter 1. "emptiness = nothingness, nonentity", is not ORDER!
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Interesting that the Aramiac Peshitta Bible, which is older than our known Hebrew manuscripts, reads:

    The Earth was chaos and empty and darkness on the faces of the depths and the Spirit of God hovered on the faces of the waters

    Genesis 1 Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
     
  18. Scripture More Accurately

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    I chose to comment on this thread because I strongly oppose the notion that God created the earth as chaos, total disorder, or confusion. I have shown that there is substantive basis, both theologically and lexically, to reject that view.

    Discussing the meaning of that verse beyond that point is not something that I am prepared to do. I do not claim to know exactly how that verse should be properly understood, but I am confident about how it should not be understood.
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    I was responding to the OP, "Chaos is impossible without order. Order has to be there first in order for there to be chaos"

    I have shown from Genesis 1:2, that before God Created the heavens and the earth, there was no "order". Words mean different things in different places, and there is no problem with "chaos", as in how Encarta defines this English word

    "earliest condition of universe: the unbounded space and formless matter supposed to have existed before the creation of the universe"
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So you believe meaninglessness came first before meaningful order out of meaninglessness.
     
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