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Chapter and Verse

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Oct 28, 2003.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You mean to tell me that you knew these without looking it up in a concordance or commentary? There's nothing in the KJV that gives the proper context to these. Hence you must have looked them up. The definition for brass is interesting, though. Its usage is a clear error. The KJV authors meant it to be translated to "brass", because that was the common alloy of the 17th century (copper-zinc alloy). However, brass was not invented until well after the Biblical canon was compiled. The correct translation for the Hebrew word nchosheth is bronze (copper-tin alloy), and nchash, and related words is copper (or, anything made of copper, such as a coin or medallion).

    No need, because the issue you brought up was that "anyone" can understand 1611 King's English. The issue of whether or not anyone can understand any of the words listed, in any version, with the assistance of implied context, cross reference, or concordance is not something that is in disagreement.
     
  2. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Well, unlike some on this board, I try not to assume too much and if you say you could do it without any assistance, I will believe you. When I said, "good for you", I was not being sarcastic. Wisdom and knowledge are a gift from God and I am glad that you have been blessed with them. Use them to the glory of God. [​IMG]

    I relate the word to our current day lieutenant governors, which would not be a military leader position (at least under normal circumstances).

    I agree, whether someone was using NIV or KJV. So, the argument that the KJV needs updating is a mute point.

    Probably so, but the whole premise of this thread was to try to trap someone into saying something that they should not say. The fact that I have attempted to turn the trap on them is minor in comparision.

    That is correct. I did not consult anything other than the KJV scripture using my electronic KJV Bible ( Usama's King James Electronic Bible v1.0.57, note: new version includes commentaries but the old version does not ); no references, footnotes, or commentary. I used it because it is very easy to search for keywords like the list I was asked to define.

    I disagree. Let me show you one example. Take "suburbs", it is found 69 times. I scanned over the verses and noticed that "suburbs" is always referred to separate from "cities" (cf. Numbers 35:2,4). But notice verse 3 of that chapter:
    And the cities shall they have to dwell in; and the suburbs of them shall be for their cattle, and for their goods, and for all their beasts.
    Cattle need fields or plains to roam and feed in, thus I knew "suburbs" = fields or plains. :D
    It might be difficult for someone who has never been around cattle or rural farmland to grasp, but for this rednecked Southern boy, the context clearly defines its meaning.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Michael Hobbs: "Are you suggesting that
    the Maccabees should be considered
    writings inspired by the Holy Spirit?"

    No. I am suggesting the two Maccabbees books
    are in the real KJV1611 (and not in
    the MV: KJV1769).
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Your arrogance is truly amazing for a person holding the title of "pastor". Like many here, you have lumped me into a crowd that I would never be apart of. If you don't wish to apologize for that, fine, I won't ask you again.

    I'm sure you are a very learned and intelligent man. You know and understand many of my points better than your posts have implied. Thus, you have played dumb.
     
  5. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    MV's said: KJV needs updated because language has changed over last 400 years.
    I said: O.T. Hebrew didn't need updating after the 400 years of silence even though language most likely had changed as well.
    You said: Maccabbees show there wasn't silence.
    I asked: Do you consider Maccabbees inspired?
    You answered: No

    So, your reference to Maccabbees has ZERO relevance to the argument.

    Thus, it was merely a way for you to play your shtick on the KJV. You are the man! :rolleyes:

    Here's a way to increase your repertoire: when someone mentions the NIV, start asking them if they mean the NIV(1973), NIV(1978) or NIV(1984) [​IMG]
     
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Michael says to Bro Ed for asking which KJV? 1611/1769, etc…:

    But Michael, on October 6 you criticized Bro Ed with the following:

    So he was only following through using your own tactic of "play your shtick".

    Another matter:
    Oops, going through the thread I see a “scribal error” in one of my posts:

    Which leads me to ask again Michael RE: Jerome and the last two questions in the corrected post above.

    HankD
     
  7. Archangel7

    Archangel7 New Member

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    If "suburbs" in these verses really means "fields" or "plains," then why not translate it as "fields" or "plains?" Why use an obscure or confusing word when there's a better alternative?
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I don't know when I did this; I certainly don't keep track of what is posted. There is simply too much of it to keep track of it and it comes from too many different people. If I mischaracterized your position, then I apologize. It was certainly not intentional. I hate it when people do that to me, and I certainly do not intentionally do it to others. As I say, I have no idea what you are talking about here.

    ON what?? Again, I don't know what you are talking about. I do ask questions about stuff I know to find out if other people actually know what they are talking about. (Many times they don't.) Other times, I ask questions to make implications explicit. If that is playing dumb, then so be it. If you have particular issues here, let me know.
     
  9. Forever settled in heaven

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    i agree w Archangel: don't redneck rebels know the diff between a SUBURB n a FIELD/PLAIN?

    :eek: :rolleyes:

    i've been to the South--consider myself having lived there before even--but i don't recall cows in the suburbs or any rebel boys mistaking a field for a suburb.

    have things changed that much in the last 20 yrs?
     
  10. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    I disagree. Let me show you one example. Take "suburbs", it is found 69 times. I scanned over the verses and noticed that "suburbs" is always referred to separate from "cities" (cf. Numbers 35:2,4). But notice verse 3 of that chapter:
    And the cities shall they have to dwell in; and the suburbs of them shall be for their cattle, and for their goods, and for all their beasts.
    Cattle need fields or plains to roam and feed in, thus I knew "suburbs" = fields or plains. :D </font>[/QUOTE]
    There is nothing in the context to necessitate your interpretation though. You are simply stretching to make the facts conform to your opinion. Suburbs in that context could have just as easily meant small lots or barns like a livery, feed lot, or corral.
    There are far more cattle in the county where I live than people... and the context does not clearly define the meaning of suburb in this passage.
     
  11. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    hahaha, that has got to be the funniest statement I have read on this board. [​IMG]
    Careful though, you may get accused of playing "dumb". ;)

    I think I had posted it one other time (for a total of 3), so I think everyone knows whose shtick it is.

    I honestly don't know enough about the history of Jerome and the Latin Vulgate to answer. I know the RCC said the Vulgate was better than the original Greek and Hebrew and wanted the Vulgate to be the only bible used by anyone. I believe it had to be revised several times due to errors.

    I do not know why the KJV translators used the words they used. Can you tell me why the NIV translators used the "modern" words in the list I gave when better alternatives were available?
     
  12. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    I can answer for both groups. They were scholarly yet fallible men. Neither of which worked from a word for word perfect facsimile of the originals nor were supernaturally guided in their word choices.

    Neither set of translators used a perfectly preserved/reconstructed text and they did not produce translations that were perfect in the sense of being beyond improvement.
     
  13. Archangel7

    Archangel7 New Member

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    I do not know why the KJV translators used the words they used. Can you tell me why the NIV translators used the "modern" words in the list I gave when better alternatives were available? </font>[/QUOTE]No, I really can't. Nevertheless, consistency demands that all translations be held to the same standard, so my questions must be asked of *any* English version. There are difficult words in both the KJV and the NIV that could be better translated. Would you agree with this? If not, why not?
     
  14. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Perhaps you're correct, if that was the only usage of the word. But as I said, the word occurs 69 times in the KJV. I gave verse 3 of Numbers 35 but also referenced verses 2 and 4. I didn't realize I needed to walk you thru each verse.

    Verse 2: suburbs surround the cities
    Verse 3: suburbs are for the cattle and other beasts
    Verse 4: suburbs extend out 1000 cubits.

    If my math is correct, 1000 cubits would be 1800 feet or the equivalent length of 6 football fields. Does this sound like a barn or corral to you?
     
  15. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Absolutely! Language is not constant.
     
  16. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    How many people today know what a "cubit" is? Having known many KJVO's personally, most could not start to tell you.

    Additionally, most people aren't going to look up all 69 verses if they think they already know what a suburb is.

    The simple answer is to update the Bible to the language spoken today.
     
  17. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Yes, that would be the simple solution. However, we have a biblical solution:

    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Yes, that would be the simple solution. However, we have a biblical solution:

    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]That verse has nothing to do with understanding a language that is not your own. There is more than enough to study in the Bible without having to try to figure out whether familiar words have changed meanings or not.
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for your honesty Michael.

    Jerome probably had original language mss from before the 4th century. The Church of Rome had just started to drift into the wedding of Church and State. The vulgate (imo) is a good translation (apart from the Apocrypha).

    As much as I like the Old Itala (Vulgate predecessor), some of the mss seem to contain commentary notes in the body of the text.

    The Vulgate did hail back to the original language mss.

    some of the Vulgate weaknesses have influenced the KJV as well as its strengths.

    HankD
     
  20. Forever settled in heaven

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    which doesn't explain why KJBOs don't read their bibles in the original Gk or Hebrew or even the hard-to-read NIV.

    or do other people have to study n not themselves?
     
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