Chastened at the JSOC?

2Pe 2:12-13
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Yay for rewards!! :tonofbricks:

 

Luke 16 is in fact a parable in a long string of parables Luke gives - culminating in chapter 16. What has just happened is that the Jewish leaders complained about that long string of parables and the fact that they don't like the lessons that he is teaching.

So then Christ picks a parable they WILL like. One where Abraham is in charge of all dead sains. One where the dead wicked pray directly to Abraham and HE (not God) sovereignly renders decisions.

This is so blatant - so obvious that many scholars conclude that this REQUIRES that the parable of Luke 16 be understood by ALL to be the parable that it is!

These guys agree with you wanting to have hell and torment immediately after death - but they simply can not swallow the idea that Abraham is in charge of all the saints.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So where in this quote:

"No, in the OT, when the Bible spoke of discipline and chastening it was always in the form of a rod taken to a child. It was not the loss of a reward. That is the New Age concept of discipline. It isn't so in the Bible. Discipline was always negative reinforcement, not positive."

did I say that God was a "New Ager God?" Your remark still stands as blasphemous and totally unwarranted.
Chastening is limited only to this earth. There is no chastening outside of this earth anywhere in the Bible. None of you have been able to demonstrate that yet. Chastening as defined in Hebrews 12 is described in various passages in the Book of Proverbs, some of which you have referred. It refers to a rod of chastening. It refers to discipline in the sense of negative reinforcement. It refers to corporeal punishment on earth, and a similar punishment by our Lord in other ways to His children on earth.
It never refers to a loss of reward. This is a New Age concept of discipline. In other words it does not fit the definition of chastening. Chastening does not take place at the JSOC, but a loss of reward does. A loss of reward is not chastening. Does that make things any clearer for you?
DHK

 

Unfortunately, what you have described equates to the conditions of what Catholics call Purgatory. From your point of view, what are the differences between what a Catholic calls Purgatory and your chastening?

 

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

What is the difference between being punished and being chastened?

 

(reward of unrighteousness)

You need help to tell the difference between the saved and unrighteous. I should of said reward of the saved. I didn't know some wouldn't understand.

 

and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

He that is without chastisement is a bastard and not a son.

One is for the unjust as the top scripture says and chastisement is for the Children.

 

Do you revel in taking Scripture out of context? Why did you quote verse 9 and then immediately jump to verse 20? Except for verses 7,8, and 9, every verse in chapter two is speaking of false prophets, unsaved and wicked individuals. It is not speaking of believers at all. Yet you try to connect verse 9 with the rest of the chapter. Those three verses are speaking of Lot who was declared to be righteous in a wicked world.

But the false prophets, unsaved men,

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

2 Peter 2:21-22 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This is the description of the unsaved: his boastfulness against God, great swelling words, living the lusts of the flesh, etc.
It would have been better if they had not even been born. It would have been better if they had never heard the way of salvation, then after hearing it to reject it.
A dog returns to its own vomit. That describes the unsaved; not the saved. All of the above is a description of the unsaved and has nothing to do with chastening; nothing to do with the JSOC!!
DHK

 

Because the scribes and Pharisees did not believe Jesus for who He was, it was not given them to understand Parables.

He could not have been speaking to them a Parable for, as you said, they understood when He spoke of Abraham. Since He was speaking to them on things they could understand it could not have been a Parable.

It was indeed telling them of the reality of one who rejected the Lord and trusted in his riches and material possessions.

 

And a hearty Amen, DHK!

God is not going to cast His own into outer darkness.

 

Not Hard to Find I don't know if you were looking for an answer, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say this is a legitimate question.

And the answer is that Catholics consider purgatory a place where bad people can go to be saved after dying if I'm not mistaken. It doesn't matter whether or not they are "saved" so long as they are Catholic they can go to this place and be cleansed and then be good to go for eternity.

They believe that people outside of purgatory can pray those that are in purgatory out in a shorter period of time.

We believe in a set time of 1,000 years. One can not do anything to get out of missing their inheritance (although it will be sought with many tears and much repentance, but it will be too late). And no one will be able to pray someone out exclusion and into the kingdom.

Those that are excluded from the kingdom are saved individuals, not unsaved individuals. Just because one is a member of the Baptist church or whatever denomination doesn't gain them access to this place for cleansing.

Being excluded from the kingdom is not about a cleansing of sin, but as discipline for not learning obedience in this life.

Hope that explains the differences, somewhat. Now I will again remove myself to the bleachers

 

Who believes this set time? And where do they get it? It certainly is not in God's Holy Word.

 

Purgatory?

 

Once again, it comes time to post the definition of Purgatory:

PURGATORY

(to purge; to cleanse). According to Roman Catholic theology, purgatory is a place or state where Christians go after death to suffer for sins not cleansed during their earthly existence. After an unspecified time of purgation, the soul is thought to go to Heaven. It is said to be a place of suffering. Until recent years, purgatory was described as a place of fiery pain, but many Catholic priests today teach that the fires of purgatory as taught in former days might be symbolic. Masses are said for the dead in the belief that rituals and prayers can help speed the soul's escape from purgatory. Even popes are not thought to be exempt from purgatory. When Pope Paul died, special masses were performed all over the world to help him out of purgatory.

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in Purgatory, the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who have not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions, are cleansed after death with punishment designed to purge away their debt" (Vatican Council II, p. 75).

"The Church teaches us that after death the soul still has to suffer purification (that is the meaning of the word purgatory) before it is able to see God. It will certainly be a painful purification; that is why it is represented by the image of a `fire'" (The Theologians Answer Your Questions, 1970, pp. 138-139).

"This doctrine of purgatory, reflected in Scripture and developed in Tradition, was clearly expressed in the Second Council of Lyons (A.D. 1274). ... Besides declaring the fact of purgatory, the Second Council of Lyons also affirmed that `the faithful on earth can be of great help' to persons undergoing purgatory by offering for them `the sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds'" (Handbook for Today's Catholic, p. 36).

It almost seems silly to give a Bible answer to the false teaching of purgatory, since the answer is so obvious. The answer is that purgatory is not taught in the Bible! Not only so, but it is contrary to the Bible's teaching about salvation. Purgatory is based on a gross misunderstanding and perversion of the Gospel. While it is true that no sin can enter into Heaven, the great Bible words defining the Gospel explain that the purgation necessary to bring the soul into Heaven has already been accomplished on the Cross. Redemption means to be purchased from the slave market of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ. Propitiation means that the sin debt has been satisfied by the blood of Christ. Justification means the believer is declared righteousness by Almighty God because of what Jesus Christ has done for his soul.

1. The true Christian goes directly to the presence of Christ at death (2Co 5:8; Php 1:23; 1Th 5:9). This is the consistent testimony of the Apostles. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Apostle Paul looked forward at death to "depart and be with Christ." In discussing the resurrection and translation of Christians in 1Th 4:14, the Apostle Paul says the Lord Jesus will bring the dead saints with Him from Heaven when he comes. There is no hint of some coming from any other place, such as from purgatory. Death cannot and does not separate the believer from Christ. Nothing can. His blood has forever removed the sin barrier. When Christ died He cried, "It is finished!" (Joh 19:30). At that moment, the veil in the temple was rent (Mt 27:50-51), God thereby signifying that the entrance into His very presence had been accomplished! The believer can praise God for this blessed certainty.

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" (Heb 10:19-20). Sin does indeed demand suffering, but the Bible gives us the Good News that Jesus Christ, God's Son, has already suffered for sin in our place (Isa 53:5-12; 2Co 5:21; 1Pe 3:18; 4:1).

The Roman Catholic Church has turned the Lord's Supper into a grand religious pageantry which they call a sacrifice, but it knows nothing about the real efficacy of the Sacrifice which the Supper pictures. That Sacrifice has entirely and eternally removed the sin barrier between God and that individual who exercises personal, repentant faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Glory to His name!

2. Jesus' blood cleanses the believer from all sin and gives him perfect righteousness before God. No true believer will ever suffer fiery torment for his own sins (Ro 3:21-24; 5:9; 2Co 5:21; Eph 1:3,7; Heb 9:12; 1Pe 2:24; 3:18).

3. The Roman Catholic Church has no scriptural authority for the teaching of Purgatory. A key "authority" cited by the Catholic Church for purgatory is a quote from one of the apocryphal books, II Maccabees. The Apocrypha are included in the Catholic Bible but rejected by Bible-believing Christians. [See Apocrypha.] According to the Catholic church, the Apocrypha and their own tradition are equally authoritative with the Scriptures, but this is impossible in that the Apocrypha and Catholic tradition contains many teachings contrary to the Bible. It is the Bible alone which is the authoritative Word of God, and when a religious doctrine such as purgatory contradicts the plain teaching of the Scriptures, we reject it. [See Apocrypha.]

4. The Roman Catholic Church has no authority for offering Masses for the dead. The Mass, supposedly, is the Lord's Supper. Where does the Bible indicate the Lord's Supper is for the dead? Where does the Bible teach the believer to pray to or for the dead? [See Death.]

5. Money cannot purchase forgiveness or spiritual blessing of any sort. According to Roman Catholic practice, the wealthy can get out of purgatory more quickly than the poor because the rich can afford more masses. "Joseph Zacchello, former Roman Catholic priest, said that priests in the USA make over 22 million dollars as personal income by celebrating masses for dead Roman Catholics" (Challenger, Jan. 1984, p. 1). Through this little bit of information we see behind the mystery of why Romanism perpetuates the concept of purgatory even while there is no hint of scriptural backing. The RCC through the centuries has enriched itself through its lies about purgatory and the mass. This reminds us of Peter's description of some false teachers: "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you" (2Pe 2:3). The Bible says, "They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him" (Ps 49:6-7). See also Ac 8:20-21 and 1Pe 1:18-19.

"The Scripture authorizes no such distinction as Papists make between venial and mortal sins. It teaches that all sin is mortal, and, unless blotted out by the blood of Christ, will issue in the sinner's eternal ruin. It teaches, that after death there is neither change of character nor of state; that God does not sell his grace, but bestows it freely; that we are not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold; that no man can redeem his brother, whether by prayers or by offerings; that the law of God demands of every man, every moment of his being, the highest obedience of which his nature and his faculties are capable, and that since the foundation of the world a single work of supererogation has never been performed by any of the sons of men; and that therefore the source whence this imaginary fund of merit is supplied has no existence, and is, like the fund itself, a delusion and a fable; and it teaches, in fine, that God pardons men only on the footing of the satisfaction of his Son, which is complete and sufficient, and needs not to be supplemented by works of human merit; and that when he pardons, he pardons all sin, and for ever.

"But the grand criterion by which Rome tests all her doctrines is not their truth, nor their bearing on man's benefit and God's glory, but their value in money. How much will they bring? is the first question which she puts. And it must be confessed, that in purgatory she has found a rare device for replenishing her coffers, of which she has not failed to make the very most. ... Popery, says the author of Kirwan's Letters, meets men 'at the cradle, and dogs them to the grave, and beyond it, with its demands for money'" (J.A. Wylie, The Papacy, 1888, pp. 351,52).

Way of Life Encyclopedia

I don't care how you slice it, Kingdom Exclusion is Purgatory--only you call it by a different name. As DHK has repeatedly stated, chastisement occurs on this earth, in this lifetime--not in heaven or the JSOC!

 

Seems to me the only difference is the Catholics believe the living can either pray their loved one out of purgatory, or suffer for them to get them out.

Other than that it is the same Purgatory the cultish RCC teaches.

Those in a state of grace being cleansed to get out (under grace = saved).

Different from the damned in hell (only for a period of time).

Temporal punishment due to venial sins or transgressions (only a set period of time).

J. Jump, James Newman, Hope of Glory, Lacy Evans, and others who preach the heretical teachings of Joey Faust, Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, Robert Wilken & others are preaching nothing but Catholicism when they teach this Millenial Exclusion doctrine.

 

Couple of questions for the nay-sayers.
Do you baptize your converts? (whether you are Assembly of God, Baptist, Methodist or whatever)
Yes? Then you are teaching Catholic doctrine for they also baptize their converts.
Do you Charismatics anoint folks with oil? Yes ? Then you are teaching Catholic doctrine.
Do you folks partake of Communion? Yes? Then you are teaching Catholic doctrine.

Only you call it something else. Hee heee heeeeeee.

Yer ALL heretics!

C'mon, can't you come up with something a little less easy to refute?

Just because my Chevy is red and your Ford is red, IT DOES NOT MAKE MY CHEVY A FORD!!!

ME is true. Accept it here, or there. Your choice.

 

Uh Huh.
That's like saying "Jesus's wife lives on Jupiter and is currently commiting adultery with his brother Lucifer."
Can you substantiate that with Scripture. I sure hope not.
Neither can you substantiate ME with Scripture. You haven't thus far.
And by asserting that black is white, and green is blue, and declaring that ME is Biblical because I say so, doesn't do your cause any good.
DHK

 

Yeah! We don't have any of these in the church today, do we?

I'm so happy that we are able to judge whether or not someone is saved based on their works. It makes me happy that we're saved by our works so we will know who all these unsaved people are. I'm glad you cleared that up.

Now, I know what the Holy Spirit left out of the Bible: What must I do to be saved?

"Believe on the Lord Jesus, and continue in good works, and don't boast against God, and don't give into sin at all, and you just might be saved, as long as you don't slip up."

 

Those pesky unsaved people sneaking into the marriage feast unbeknownst to God! How dare they expose his weakness!

 

Don't you know that this just can't be true? After all, none of us will ever commit unrighteous acts once we're saved! This can only point to the fact that we will be rewarded, based on our works, with a loss of spiritual salvation.

It's works, my man! We work our way into being saved. (Or, maybe we work our way into proving we're saved; I get confused by all these works for earning our salvation. But, Diggin and DHK will point us into the right way to work our way into being saved.)