Chastened at the JSOC?

I think that to have to do a comparison like this is ludicrous, for it is obvious that one is saved and the other is not. Or will you suggest that Balaam's ass will be in heaven also because God opened his mouth and used it also? However, for your sake, let's look at Scripture and see the difference:

THE DEATH OF BALAAM
Numbers 31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
--Balaam was killed with sword. He prayed to die the death of the righteous; he died the death of the wicked among the wicked. His prayer wasn't answered. He died in shame.

THE COUNSEL OF BALAAM

Numbers 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
--The cousel of Balaam was to advise Balak to get the Israelites to intermarry and commit idolatrous marriages with pagan nations such as his. As a result of these intermarriages the Israelites went "a whoring" after other gods. The counsel of Balaam was wicked. It was directly contrary to God's command. Intermarriage and Idolatry.



THE HIRE OF BALAAM

Deuteronomy 23:3-4 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever: Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee.
--He was hired by Balak, a wicked king, in order to curse Israel.


Joshua 13:22 Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them.
--Again Joshua reminds them of his untimely death.


THE WAY OF BALAAM

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
--The way of Balaam describes those who love the wages of unrighteousness. They have gone astray. They have forsaken the right way. This does not imply that Balaam was saved. It infers that he knew what the right way was, as God revealed it to him. But instead of accepting the right way, he forsook it or rejected it.


THE ERROR OF BALAAM

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
--Woe or cursed! What Balaam did, he did for his own greed, his own lust and reward.



THE DOCTRINE OF BALAAM

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
--From all previous Scripture about Balaam we deduce what his doctrine was: He taught Israel to sacrifice to idols and to commit fornication. He did so that they would be defeated by Balak, or that Balak would be victorious over them. Satan desires to be victorious over the Christian. I allow you to expound the rest for yourself. The doctrine of Balaam is still committed today.



On the other hand here is the testimony of David.
Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Now, David is known to be a man after God's own heart. God testified about David calling him that. I accept God's testimony about David.
I accept God's Word, and what it says about Balaam.

What I do not accept is your conclusions about Balaam.
DHK

 

And, just exactly which part was he misquoting? The part that says, "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country", the part that calls him "his servant", or the part that relates to works?

Oh,yeah, he was reading directly from the text, not quoting.

 

Actually, links from Catholic sites describing their view of Purgatory have been posted.

But, it's much more convenient to come up with your own view that's contrary to it, so you can more easily insult someone with whom you agree, since you can't disagree through Scripture.

That's the frustrating part. That certain individuals will resort to lieing and slandering because that's the only weapons they have.

 

I don't think that anything that I have said on this subject has been adequately refuted. I can fairly say, that as a former Catholic, your teaching on ME is the same Catholic doctrine that I learned with only a few minor modifications. Tell me: What will be next? After your "Baptist Purgatory," will you now be teaching "Baptist Indulgences" to lessen the punishment of those that are being "chastened?"
DHK

 

It's a good thing that we don't have anyone in our churches that chooses wickedness instead of obeying God perfectly. After all, all people in the churches are sinless.


BTW, you forgot the prophecy of Balaam: "I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth."

Also, Numbers 24:12-13: And Balaam said unto Balak, Spake I not also to thy messengers which thou sentest unto me, saying,
Num 24:13 If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the commandment of the LORD, to do either good or bad of mine own mind; but what the LORD saith, that will I speak?

 

The funny thing about it is that a very good friend of mine who was a Baptist pastor until he died, came out of the Catholic church and did not see it that way. It was all new teaching to him when I first met him.

Wonder why?

Could it be that they're not all that similar, but the sound bite sounds good when you're trying to be insulting instead of discussing what the Scriptures actually say?

For some reason, when someone shows that man is body, soul, and spirit, and that a particular passage is referring to the salvation of the soul, "Why, it just can't mean what it says!"

The same with the passages that talk about future chastening of saved people. "Why, it just can't really mean what it says!"

 

After 20 years of Catholicism, Biblical Christianity was all new teahing to me also. I couldn't find my way around a Bible; didn't know what a personal relationship with Christ meant until I was saved.
Now after many years of Bible College, Seminary, missionary work, teaching in a Bible College, Pastoral work, I have never, never encountered this absolutely strange doctrine of ME or as I term it "Protestant Purgatory." Tha is what it is. I know Catholic doctrine. This is pure Catholicism veiled with a touch of Protestantism. It seems like it is promoted by some protestants who don't fully want to give up their ties to the RCC. That is all that I can figure out. The doctrine is that close. It has no resemblance to Biblical Christianity whatsoever.
DHK

 

It is funny, the Catholic Encyclopedias describe Purgatory in the same way you describe your false doctrine of ME, the only way one can get the doctrine of ME in the Word of God is to pull verses out of context, twist them, and turn them into a lie... and you still say it is not Catholic?


The future chastening, as you put it, can only be seen when one pulls Scripture out of context.

I have to commend DHK, he has much more patience than I would. I would have bounced you and your Catholic doctrines and lies off this board several threads back.

 

Almost all the books that I have seen or heard of have been written by Baptists.

But, I did not encounter them until recently. I grew up in the Baptist Church, and in the 70's, growing up in the South, about half the churches taught the Kingdom, about half were evangelical, and a tiny portion that made both of those "about" halves were seeker friendly types.

Now, as more and more Baptist churches move further and further away from the Scriptures, you see Kingdom truths taught less and less, and many of those Baptist churches are dropping "Baptist" from their names for that very reason.

It breaks my heart to see so many churches falling further and further from the truth and teaching a salvation by works, and teaching a license to sin because we have no accountability for our actions; after all, we only receive good stuff at the Judgment Seat of Christ, or maybe lose some of what we could have had. (BobRyan is quite correct in this point: If we're unfaithful (works), we're going to do a lot more than simply lose some of our cookies and milk; OK, that's a paraphrase, but close enough.)

I am always happy to see more and more Kingdom congregations popping up all over the place, though. I am also happy to see that there are writers that I need to check out, such as Faust, Hodges, Dillow, and others.

I know that Kingdom teachings used to be par for the course at DTS, but the last graduate I met from there didn't even have to have the first course in Greek. It saddens me to know that the Christian community has been dumbed down to the point that it is. Of course, our public education system doesn't help matters: How can someone learn Greek if they can't even speak English? (Of course, this is in reference to English speaking students and teachers.) If you don't know the difference between aorist and present or what a participle is, you're going to be easily deceived by lies, and not understand simple things such as John 3:16.

Of course, that's what Satan wants. He's not attacking unsaved people: They're already his. He's attacking saved people and deceiving them into thinking that there's nothing in a Christian's life beyond being saved; that we're all the same and we're all gonna rule and reign and we're all gonna get good stuff. (Of course, when one doesn't even understand what wages are, there's more confusion.)

 

Your lack of understanding and your willingness to intentionally lie and slander just proves that you're obviously unsaved. (Boy! It's nice to know that we can judge someone's salvation based on their works!)

See, I always thought that the gospel of salvation was "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".

But, you've shown me that it's really based on our works. We earn our salvation.

You've also taught me that Jesus lied. When he said that the servant was "his servant", he wasn't really his (he's just trying to trick us, apparently), and that our spiritual salvation is determined by our works.

 

Satan is not only attacking saved people, but he is deceiving many unsaved into believing that they are saved. He is deceiving many to believe the false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion.

If he can convince them that KE is truth, he has deceived them mightily, for the Word of God teaches that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire; and satan has them lying by telling others that KE is doctrinally and Biblically sound.

But only those which are written in the Lamb's Book of Life... hmmmm.

Only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life plainly shows that the saved will not be split up into two groups. It does not show that part of the saved will be cast into outer darkness. No, it shows exactly the opposite of the KE proponents lying tongue. All the saved will enter into it, not just some.

The saved are cleansed, the saved are washed, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6:

The saved are no longer seen as the vile sinner that is unworthy of entering God's Kingdom. They are seen as Righteous because they have put on Christ. It is Christ's Righteousness that they were clothed in. Their sins and iniquities are no longer imputed (charged) against them.

Paul looked forward to departing this life and to be with Christ 'which is far better'. Paul admitted in Romans 7 that he sinned even though he did not want to, yet he spoke of dying and being with Christ 'which was far better'?

What is 'far better' about Christ telling Paul he was forgiven for his sin and Paul looking forward to spending 1000 years in hell, tormented in outer darkness?

No, Paul knew that 'far better' meant that he would 'ever be with the Lord' as he wrote to the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:

'So shall we ever be with the Lord' sure does not sound like God will tell some of us 'Depart from me, I never knew you,' or 'Cast that unprofitable servant into outer darkness.'

 

Hello???????
News Flash, the unprofitable servant was not saved. He was unprofitable. He had not put on the Lord's Righteoushness. He was not clothed in Christ's Righteousness. That is why he was cast out.

And quit with that asinine statement that God let someone unsaved slip into His kingdom. If you truly studied His Word (which is quite obvios you have not), you would see even the unsaved will try to enter the kingdom in their unsaved condition, and some will.

Jesus clearly shows that some will actually try to enter in by bypassing Him, clothed in their own righteousness, their own filthy rags. There is your unprofitable servant... he has entered in without going through the Bridegroom, the Door, The Way.

Because this unprofitable servant is unsaved, he is cast into outer darkness.

 

I checked with the ex-Catholic at our church who is still living, and she agrees that Millennial Exclusion bears no resemblance to Purgatory either. She says that Purgatory has to do with spiritual salvation and others trying to pray you out of Purgatory.

So, I think I can safely assume that not only are you trying to be intentionally insulting, but continuing to either lie or willfully spread lies. I can only hope that it's in ignorance and not intent.

If you've never encountered teachings on the Kingdom of the Heavens, I have to wonder how you can miss it. It's found 32 times in the book of Matthew. The "Kingdom of God" is found in 68 verses in the NT, and the single word "Kingdom" is found 158 times in 150 verses.

Unless you think that we work for our spiritual salvation as Diggin, Linda, SFiC and a few others do, then there's no mistaking the Kingdom teachings for the gospel of salvation. And, unless you think that our spiritual salvation can be lost, then you have to wonder what the loss is going to be that we are warned about throughout Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit [family matter] the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, (21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments [works], that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will [works], shall be beaten [future, passive, indicative] with many stripes.

Colossians 3:24-25 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward [antapodosis; compensation given back in return] of the inheritance [family matter]: for ye serve [works]the Lord Christ. (25) But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

 

So, according to the Gospel according to Diggin, Jesus lied. He was not "his servant".

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to whose servant he was, since Jesus lied about it.

BTW, did you notice that he had the talent, and he returned it completely intact? He just hadn't gained anything; he hadn't worked.

So, perhaps you could extend your enlightenment to tell us how much this servant (that Jesus lied about whose he was) needed to work to earn his salvation.

 

I'm not the one making this claim; you are.

 

Works! We got works again!

Diggin just proved that we earn our spiritual salvation!

Either that, or "outer darkness" means what the Bible says instead of what Diggin says.

Diggin, that expression doesn't what you think it means.

 

Apparently you did not read the posts 34 and 35 which clearly tell what purgatory is.

And your friend must not have studied the doctine of purgatory thoroughly or she would see you are teaching the same lies.

 

I sure wish you would quit your lying about me, HoG... I have never stated that we had to work for salvation or to be able to enter the kingdom. Those are the words of you and your lying colleagues.

I have stated that we enter through Christ and Him alone. My works are filthy rags and I cannot put them on over His clean white garments.

You have spewed lies about me constantly. And by the way, I also have not seen Linda64 or sfiC say that you have to work to enter the kingdom. You twist our words just like you are twisting the Word of God.

 

Yes this is what you believe--a purgatory where the saints go to be "purged" or "chastened" for their sins. The only difference is that you don't have others praying you out of it. I am surprised that you haven't started that yet. The concept is the same--A place of suffering for the saints before they reach heaven; correct?

It is not my intent. My intent is to show you that you actually believe in Catholic doctrine--damnable heresy.

Certainly I have encountered teachings on the Kingdom. I know all about the teaching on the Kingdom, and the Millennial. But not once in the Scripture is this heretical doctrine mentioned that you call "Millennial Exclusion." Can you please find that for me in the Scripture. It is not there.

I find this comment slanderous. We beleive in salvation by grace through faith, that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works. Nothing could be clearer than what you have slanderously accused us of. On the other hand you have demonstrated in your posts that you do not believe in eternal security or OSAS, that you do believe you can lose your salvation, and that you do consequently believe in a salvation by works. That is what a belief in ME results in. I will explain it once again. Hopefully you will grasp it this time.

Here is your belief as I understand.
1. Salvation by faith.
2. Salvation lost because of unconfessed sin, or because of lack of works.
3. Such believers are excluded from the Millennial Kingdom, suffer in torment (purgatory) for a thousand years (chastisement) awaiting heaven. This heresy is nothing less than a loss of salvation. It is a loss of eternal security. It is no longer eternal. Eternal has now become temporal, a contradiction of terms. It is totally contradictory, both in logic and in definition of terms. How can one lose their salvation for a thousand years? This is what you are teaching. For in no way can this be considered "salvation." God has not appointed his own to wrath.
4. Then, after this ME, you have salvation re-gained. This, of course, is all according to works. The chastisement (like purgatory) was according to works. The regaining of salvatiion from the suffering will be according to works. It is all according to works. Your entire salvation is according to works. It is no longer of grace but of works. The blood of Jesus Christ is of no longer any consequence to you; it is now become meaningless.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--If this verse has any meaning to ou whatsoever you would know that this verse alone defeats the doctrine of ME.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit [family matter] the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Read the passage carefully. They shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Have you ever looked upon a woman to lust after her in your heart? Then you are in that list too. Do you believe in any heresy? According to this thread you do, and are thus in that list too. Have you ever been angry with any other believer? Then you are in that list too. You will not inherit the kingdom of God my friend. Remember that in Mat. 5, Jesus gave the real meaning of these sins.
Consider also that the verb is "inherit." But inherit does not mean "enter." Praise God for that. One may not inherit the Kingdom of God, but that does not exclude him from entering it.

However you have quoted a section of Scripture out of context as you are prone to do, and often have. Why didn't you quote further down??
DHK

 

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
--The very next veres says and such were some of you. He was speaking of their past unsaved lives. Their present saved lives were different. Now they sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of God. Now they are saved. But you failed to mention that didn't you. You failed to quote that verse. You just take Scripture out of context to try to prove a point that isn't in Scripture. That is shameful. It is what the cults do all the time.

More Scripture taken out of cotext. This is your greatest hobby I take it?
Read the context. He is talking of unbelievers, and the habits of the lives of unbelievers. What does he say a couple of verses later:

Ephesians 5:7-8 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
--But now are YOU light in the Lord[/b]
They are the children of light contrasted to the former verses which speak of the deeds of the children of darkness. So why quote Scripture out of context unless your doctrine includes the children of darkness at both the JSOC and in the Millennial Kingdom? You are terrribly confused, or deliberately perverting Scripture. Here is what Peter says about that ploy:

Speaking of Paul's epistles he says:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Honestly, what are you trying to prove here. Will these also be at the JSOC? Are these also believers? Do you really believe in a works salvation? That is what you are making a case for by quoting these verses out of context. The only conclusion that I can come to is that you believe that salvation is by works when you quote such Scripture in relation to a believers life.
It plainly says that these people will have their part in the lake of fire. Is that where the believers will end up? In the lake of fire which burns forever and ever? Is this your JSOC? Is this your ME? This is even worse than the Catholic Purgatory. At least in Catholicism those in Purgatory have a chance of entering into heaven. Here they have no chance whatsoever. What kind of doctrine are you propagating--that believers will be sent to the Lake of Fire?? Surely you jest? But this isn't a jesting matter. It is serious. And what you have quoted, and the context in which you quote it is heresy.

Take the verse in its context. What does it mean "do his commandments?" Study out Gal.3:10 and James 2:10.
Whosever shall keep the whole law and offend in one point is guilty of all.
Have you lied but one time in your life--just one lie? Then you are just as guilty as the murderer and the adulterer! You are guilty of breaking all the law. You have not kept all the commandments. No man has. According to your theology and misunderstanding of Scripture Heaven will be empty. No man can keep all the commandments. We can't even live up to our own expectations, much less the expectations of God. Are you as holy as God? There is another meaning. And it doesn't involve ME.

Here you base doctrine on parables. That is characteristic of cults. Parables illustrate truth already taught in the Bible. Your doctrine is not taught in the Bible so now you are trying to get it out of a parable. That is not good hermeneutics, in fact it is a definite "no-no"! What was the Lord's will anyway, in the parable. Figure that out first.

Yes, at the Judgement seat of Christ every beleiver shall give account of himself before God. There will be no chastisement outside of this earth; only a gain or loss of reward--no chastisement. This verse also bears out the same thing.
DHK