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Featured Christ died for the sin of unbelief !

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Dec 8, 2021.

  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christ died for the sin of unbelief because its a sin the Holy Spirit convicts of Jn 16:8-9

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

    Unbelief is the root sin of the world that Christ taketh away ! Jn 1:29

    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
     
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  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for keeping this alive.
     
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  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Just to play a devils advocate. Do these verses declare that unbelief is a sin that is not paid for by Jesus?

    Hebrews 3:12-19
    Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

    Hebrews 6:4-8
    For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

    I do not think these verses teach that God never died for unbelief in a Christian.
    I do think these verses support a limited atonement whereby a redeemed Christian will believe because the atonement of Christ, for the elect of God is effective to secure a perseverance in belief.
    Those who fall away were/are types of Judas Iscariot who hid his blasphemy against Christ until the betrayal.
     
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    "I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means" - Inigo Montoya
     
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Thats fine.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yep. If the sin of unbelief were not forgivable then we could not have been forgiven of that sin.
     
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @1689Dave ,

    We can continue our conversation.

    You rejected my belief that God created vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath in favor of God being arbitrary.

    I am not sure if you are rejecting my belief in unconditional election and reprobation or if it is just one of those you reject.

    If you would, please clarify.

    Thank you
     
  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You failed to understand that the election of individuals to salvation or damnation was purely arbitrary. None of His decrees were. They were based on His nature or attributes.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You fail to understand that God is not arbitrary. Has the Potter no right over the clay?

    Scripture stares that God has created vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath for His purposes.

    This is not arbitrary. God did not create vessels of wrath and arbitrarily choose some of them to save. You are wrong.

    Read Romans 9.
     
  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You do not understand what I'm saying. Out of the SAME lump, He makes one vessel to honor and another to dishonor. Salvation is not based on anything other than God's arbitrary choice between the two made from the same lump.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The lump is not the vessels. Either way, the point of the passage is "who are you to question God?".

    Are people predestined to salvation? Yes. Is it because of some value in them? No. But God is not arbitrary. You are making an assumption that if true ultimately diminishes God.
     
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    What then did God make from the same lump? It says He hated Esau (check Esaus's national history) and loved Jacob. While they were innocent in the womb.
     
  13. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Why did God have them "flip coins" if His call is with respect of persons?
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Nothing literally. It is an illustration telling us God is Creator and has the right over Creation, not accountable to man.

    Why do you believe God acts in an arbitrary way? Scripture denies this time and time again as we are told of God's eternal nature and plan.

    I agree with you that God foes not choose man based on man's value or righteousness. But we do not need to sacrifice God's nature to make this point.
     
  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Esau and his offspring were damned and crushed out of existance.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, I am aware the destruction of the Edomites on 68 AD. And I am aware that God chose Jacob.

    I am amazed you believe this was a random and arbitrary act of God.
     
  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Why did God save you?
     
  18. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Its forgiven because Christs death took it away. Its not forgivable its forgiven for all whom Christ died.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Why did God tell Israel He loved them? He set His love on them because He loved them.

    Why did God save me Because? Because He loved me. Salvation is God's love (God loved the world by sending His Son).

    If you mean "why me", that is something you need to take up with God.
     
  20. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The work of the devil, which unbelief is, cannot render the work of Christ on a sinners behalf ineffective or futile. But that's exactly what people are saying when they claim Christ died for people who still perish in their sins because of unbelief Jn 8:24

    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    That unbelief is satans work producing unbelief is seen in a couple of verses. #1 2 Cor 4:3-4

    3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    #2 Lk 8:12

    Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

    So if Christ died for a person for the intention of saving that person from their sins, and that person nevertheless dies in unbelief, and never believes and be saved, then the devil rendered Jesus purpose to save ineffective, and gains the victory over the Son of God concerning that soul. Thats why I dont believe a person Christ died for can die in their sins in unbelief !
     
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