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Christ is continually sacrificed?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Living4Him, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Bob,

    I'm afraid that you are the one mistaken. I checked with my parish priest this morning. He has been a priest for 60 years and he states that it is the power of the Holy Spirit working through the priest who are the instruments of Christ.

    I think I would rely on the word of someone who has been doing the work of Lord for 60 years via the priesthood and is very knowledgable with regards to the Church's teaching rather than someone who "thinks" they know.
     
  2. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Matt,
    I apologize but I'm not sure what you are asking.
     
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    I'm asking whether any of the other three prayers support or oppose your original contention that Christ is not continually re-sacrificed in the Mass. (I found it curious that you only quoted from Eucharistic Prayer II)

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  4. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    I quoted from the one that our priest use most often.

    I'll look for the other two and I'll post them as soon as I find them.
     
  5. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Preface

    "In the Preface, the Church gives thanks to the Father, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit, for all his works: creation, redemption, and sanctification" (CCC 1352). The Preface used depends on which Eucharistic prayer is used.

    Preface Acclamation (Sanctus)

    The Sanctus or Holy, Holy, Holy is one example of the Mass being connected with the heavenly liturgy. The book of Revalation is John's account of the heavenly liturgy. On the Lord's Day (Rev 1:10) St. John was caught up in the spirit to heaven to witness how heaven worships. The Sanctus is sung by the angels and saints in Rev 4:8. Every Mass we join in the heavenly celebration. For a more in depth discussion of this topic ask to borrow from me The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth by Dr. Scott Hahn. "The whole community thus joins in the unending praise that the Church in heaven, the angels and all the saints, sing to the thrice-holy God" (CCC 1352). Also see Isaiah 6:3.


    Eucharistic Prayer

    The Eucharistic Prayer, also called the Anaphora, is the the prayer of thanksgiving and consecration, the heart and summit of the celebration of the Mass (cf. CCC 1352). There are four normal versions and two reconciliation versions.

    Epiclesis

    "In the epiclesis, the Church asks the Father to send his Holy Spirit on the bread and wine, so that by his power they may become the body and blood of Jesus Christ and so that those who take part in the Eucharist may be one body and one spirit..." (CCC 1353).

    Institution Narritive

    "In the institution narrative, the power of the words and the action of Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally present under the species of bread and wine Christ's body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross once for all" (CCC 1353).

    Memorial Acclamation

    One of four memorial acclamations may be used:
    A. Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again. (cf. 1 Corithians 15:3-5) (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15)
    B. Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory. (1 Corinthians 16:22)
    C. When we eat this bread, when we drink this cup, we proclaim your death, Lord Jesus, until you come in glory. (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:26)
    D. Lord, by your cross and resurrection you have set us free. You are the Savior of the world. (Luke 4:42)
     
  6. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Eucharist Prayer I

    Father, it is our duty and our salvation,
    always and everywhere
    to give you thanks
    through your beloved Son, Jesus Christ.
    He is the Word
    through whom you made the universe,
    the Savior you sent to redeem us.
    By the power of the Holy Spirit
    he took flesh and was born
    of the Virgin Mary.
    For our sake he opened his arms on the cross;
    he put an end to death
    and revealed the resurrection.
    In this he fulfilled your will
    and won for you a holy people.
    And so we join the angels and the saints
    in proclaiming your glory as we say:


    Preface Acclamation (Sanctus)
    Holy, holy, holy, Lord, God of power and might.
    Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
    Hosanna in the highest.
    Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
    Hosanna in the highest.

    Eucharistic Prayer I

    We come to you Father,
    with praise and thanksgiving,
    through Jesus Christ your Son.
    Through him we ask you to accept and bless
    these gifts we offer you in sacrifice.
    We offer them for your holy catholic Church,
    watch over it, Lord, and guide it;
    grant it peace and unity throughout the world.
    We offer them for N. our Pope,
    for N. our Bishop,
    and for all who hold and teach the catholic faith
    that comes to us from the apostles.
    Remember, Lord, your people,
    especially those for whom we now pray,
    N. and N.


    Lord remember all of us gathered here before you.
    You know how firmly we believe in you
    and dedicate ourselves to you.
    We offer you this sacrifice of praise
    for ourselves and those who are dear to us.
    We pray to you, our living and true God,
    for our well-being and redemption.
    In union with the whole Church
    we honor Mary, the ever-virgin mother
    of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
    We honor Joseph, her husband,
    the apostles and martyrs,
    Peter and Paul, Andrew, and all the saints.
    May their merits and prayers
    gain us your constant help and protection.
    Through Christ our Lord.
    Amen.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]
     
  9. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Sorry,
    Here is the complete Eucharist I form (I tried to edit my post, but the time had been too long)

    Father, it is our duty and our salvation,
    always and everywhere
    to give you thanks
    through your beloved Son, Jesus Christ.
    He is the Word
    through whom you made the universe,
    the Savior you sent to redeem us.
    By the power of the Holy Spirit
    he took flesh and was born
    of the Virgin Mary.
    For our sake he opened his arms on the cross;
    he put an end to death
    and revealed the resurrection.
    In this he fulfilled your will
    and won for you a holy people.
    And so we join the angels and the saints
    in proclaiming your glory as we say:


    Preface Acclamation (Sanctus)
    Holy, holy, holy, Lord, God of power and might.
    Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
    Hosanna in the highest.
    Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
    Hosanna in the highest.


    [Kneel.]


    Eucharistic Prayer I
    We come to you Father,
    with praise and thanksgiving,
    through Jesus Christ your Son.
    Through him we ask you to accept and bless
    these gifts we offer you in sacrifice.
    We offer them for your holy catholic Church,
    watch over it, Lord, and guide it;
    grant it peace and unity throughout the world.
    We offer them for N. our Pope,
    for N. our Bishop,
    and for all who hold and teach the catholic faith
    that comes to us from the apostles.
    Remember, Lord, your people,
    especially those for whom we now pray,
    N. and N.


    Lord remember all of us gathered here before you.
    You know how firmly we believe in you
    and dedicate ourselves to you.
    We offer you this sacrifice of praise
    for ourselves and those who are dear to us.
    We pray to you, our living and true God,
    for our well-being and redemption.
    In union with the whole Church
    we honor Mary, the ever-virgin mother
    of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
    We honor Joseph, her husband,
    the apostles and martyrs,
    Peter and Paul, Andrew, and all the saints.
    May their merits and prayers
    gain us your constant help and protection.
    Through Christ our Lord.
    Amen.


    Epiclesis
    Father, accept this offering
    from your whole family:
    Grant us your peace in this life,
    save us from final damnation,
    and count us among those you have chosen.
    Bless and approve our offering;
    make it acceptable to you,
    an offering in spirit and in truth.
    Let it become for us
    the body and blood of Jesus Christ,
    your only Son, our Lord.


    Institution Narrative
    The day before he suffered
    he took bread in his sacred hands
    and looking up to heaven,
    to you, his almighty Father,
    he gave you thanks and praise.
    He broke the bread,
    gave it to his disciples, and said:
    Take this, all of you, and eat it:
    this is my body which will be given up for you.


    When supper was ended, he took the cup.
    Again he gave you thanks and praise,
    gave the cup to his disciples, and said:
    Take this, all of you, and drink from it:
    this is the cup of my blood,
    the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.
    It will be shed for you and for all
    so that sins may be forgiven.
    Do this in memory of me.


    Memorial Acclamation
    Let us proclaim the mystery of faith:
    Lord, by your cross and resurrection you have set us free.
    You are the Savior of the world.


    Anamnesis
    Father, we celebrate the memory
    of Christ, your Son.
    We, your people and your ministers,
    recall his passion,
    his resurrection from the dead,
    and his ascension into glory;
    and from the many gifts you have given us
    we offer to you, God of glory and majesty,
    this holy and perfect sacrifice:
    the bread of life
    and the cup of eternal salvation.
    Look with favor on these offerings
    and accept them as once you accepted
    the gifts of your servant Abel,
    the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith,
    and the bread and wine offered
    by your priest Melchisedech.
    Almighty God,
    we pray that your angel
    may take this sacrifice
    to your altar in heaven.
    Then, as we receive from this altar
    the sacred body and blood of your Son,
    let us be filled with every grace and blessing.
    Through Christ our Lord.
    Amen.


    Intercessions
    Remember, Lord, those who have died
    and have gone before us marked
    with the sign of faith,
    especially those for whom we now pray
    N. and N.
    May these, and all who sleep in Christ,
    find in your presence light, happiness, and peace.


    For ourselves, too, we ask
    some share in the fellowship
    of your apostles and martyrs,
    with John the Baptist, Stephen,
    Matthais, Barnabas, and all the saints.
    Though we are sinners,
    we trust in your mercy and love.
    Do not consider what we truly deserve,
    but grant us your forgiveness,
    through Christ our Lord.
    Through him you give us all these gifts.
    You fill them with life and goodness,
    you bless them and make them holy.


    Doxology
    Through him, with him, in him,
    in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
    all glory and honor is yours,
    almighty Father, for ever and ever.


    Great Amen
    Amen. Amen. Amen.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here we see the body of GOD being "CONFECTED" for the sacrifice that is about to take place at the MASS "event".

    L4H at first charges ME with coming up with this idea of the priest having the POWER to CONFECT the body of God. But then -- strangely L4H drops the point...

    How "instructive".

    As for JPII on this notion of Confecting Christ --

     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So the point "remains".

    The priest has the POWER to "confect God" and then sacrifice Him. (And of course RCC claims that the priest is GIVEN that power by GOD).

    The priest can not LOSE HIS POWERs to do this EVEN if he is excommunicated. He RETAINS HIS POWERS.

    This clearly stated in the quotes given. But there is nothing but bewildered confusion on the part of Living4Him to these clear and obvious points.

    Why?

    How is that supposed to form a compelling argument?

    Does that kind of logic work among Catholics when they speak with each other??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Bob,

    Through all of your posts, the fact remains that none of them believe in and of themselves that they are the ones who confect God. They all believe that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit and not because of Joe Shomoe priest.

    Yes, the mark of the Holy Spirit stays with the priest even if he is excommunicated. Man can not merely take away what has been given by the Holy Spirit.

    I'm not the one who is confused with the clear and obvious points that they all state it is the power of the Holy Spirit and not the mere man.
     
  13. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly Active Member

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    Also, isn't it true that the RCC believes that mass MUST be being said somewhere in the world at all times, so that Christ's sacrifice is not taken from us? Isn't that the reason for saying mass so often, even if there is no congregation - to contribute the max to that effort?
     
  14. FLMike

    FLMike Guest

    Something leaped out at me from these words. Does anybody, Catholic or non-Catholic, believe that any person, priest or not, can sacrifice God without God's cooperation? POWER implies the ability to do something against the will of another, but does anybody have the POWER to sacrifice (or re-sacrifice) God against His will?
     
  15. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Jesus offered his sacrifice "once for all." It's this "once for all" aspect of Christ's sacrifice, mentioned repeatedly in Hebrews, which supposedly refutes the sacrifice of the Mass.

    The Mass has always been held to be a relative sacrifice--relative to the sacrifice of the Cross, not independent of it. The Council of Trent says the Mass is the means "whereby that bloody sacrifice once to be accomplished on the Cross might be represented, the memory thereof remain even to the end of the world, and its salutary effects applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit" (Session 22, chapter 1).

    Trent continues by saying, "And inasmuch as in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner the same Christ who once offered himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, the holy council teaches that this is truly propitiatory....For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of priests who then offered himself on the Cross, the manner alone of offering being different" (Session 22, chapter 2).

    Frank Sheed summarizes Catholic teaching on the point in Theology and Sanity:

    "There is no new slaying of Christ in the Mass....Yet that it is the Christ who was slain upon Calvary is shown sacramentally by the separate consecration of bread to become His body and wine to become His blood. The essence of the Mass is that Christ is making an offering to the Father of Himself, who was slain for us upon Calvary. The Mass is Calvary, as Christ now offers it to His Father."

    Hebrews teaches the atoning death of Christ was effective for the remission of sins and hence needed to be offer only once. But this speaks of what theologians call the "objective redemption." It doesn't mean that, since Jesus died for everyone, everyone will get to heaven. (That's universalism.) The merits or the fruits of Christ's death need to be applied to the individual.

    When Catholic theologians talk about the Mass being a propitiatory sacrifice for the remission of sins, they mean, among other things, that the objective redemption which Christ's sacrifice on the Cross merited is subjectively applied to the individual through the sacrifice of the Mass.

    Christ's sacrifice objectively merited redemption on the Cross. The same sacrifice of Christ, now offered sacramentally, not physically, is applied to the individual in the Eucharist.

    Far from substituting for the Cross or to make up for something that's lacking in Christ's sacrifice, the Mass is a means by which we receive the benefits of the Atonement.

    Christ IS "always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them" (Heb. 7:25). What is the basis of this intercession? The sacrifice of the Cross (Heb. 7:27; 9:12; 10:14), which is forever present before God in the heavenly tabernacle because he who was both offered as victim and who offered the sacrifice as priest "appears before God on our behalf" (Heb. 9:24).

    Christ's perfect offering of himself present in heaven (Heb. 9:11-12) is brought to earth in an unbloody, sacramental manner in the Mass. As Frank Sheed puts it, "The Mass is the breaking through to earth of the offering of Himself that Christ makes continuously in heaven simply by His presence there."

    In the Mass Christ offers himself to the Father on our behalf, and we, his people, join ourselves sacramentally to his offering. The Mass is a way of approaching God through Christ's sacrifice, which is made present sacramentally because Christ himself is present.

    Nothing in this diminishes Calvary or implies we can approach God other than through the Cross. Rather than taking away from the Cross, the Mass emphasizes it.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The RC POV is that God GIVES the priest these magic powers. Magic powers that the priest does NOT LOSE even if he is excommunicated!

    The RC position is that GOD is the one that wants the priest to HAVE those "powers" and wants the priest to CONFECT GOD.

    This has never been in dispute.

    What HAS been in dispute is the very existence of those priestly magic powers , AND the idea that the ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE that puts a STOP to all continual sin offerings and sacrifices -- is INSTEAD a continual sacrifice!

    For most non-Catholics the "IT IS FINISHED" statement for the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice at the ONCE FOR ALL event of the cross -- shows the sacrifices to now be STOPPED.

    The RC historian Bokenkotter shows a gradual progression over time of the church leader going FROM Bible teacher TO a person with magical powers -- over time, with tradition, with the development of error.

    Further - the liturgy of the Mass as recorded in the earliest examples is nothing like the RCC creation.
     
  17. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Bob, I highly doubt that Bokenkotter states that the priest is a person with magical powers. I have ordered a copy of his book since you refer to it quite often. I am interested to see what he really says.

    It appears that you are the only one who feels that Catholic priest have magical powers.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed it does.

    Because God causes God the Son to be INCARNATED (not CONFECTED) and then living here ONCE FOR ALL, He then dies ONCE FOR ALL, and is risen ONCE, and ascends to Heaven ONCE.

    Notice in that in that ONCE FOR ALL even of Christ's first coming there is no CONFECTING GOD nor is there anyone with the POWER to CONFECT GOD that is RETAINED even if they are excommunicataed from the church.

    BY contrast - suppose we ignore the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice AND we ignore the "MEMORIAL nature of the Lord's Table (Luke 22:19 "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." )...

    Instead of that you "DO THIS TO CONFECT ME"

    INSTEAD of the ONCE FOR ALL eventt we see in the WORD that puts a STOP to sacrifices - we see the RCC needs to CONFECT GOD for a SACRIFICE at EACH Mass EVENT!

    What a HUGE contrast!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Certainly he would not use the adjective "magical".

    We can all agree there.

    But the POINT is that he shows the priest HAVING powers (regardless of where the RCC wants to say the priest GOT THEM).

    The POINT is that he shows this to have EVOLVED over time. (making a doubtful gift to first century church leaders)

    I have given quotes for those "powers" repeatedly - are you asking to see them "again"?

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    No, I have ordered the book for myself.

    But up here you stated
    making it appear that the RC historian agrees with your stance about the magical powers.
     
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